504 Women CEOs of the Channel on Diversity and Inclusion

Welcome folks. This is the IT Business podcast, a very special presentation. Welcome to our panel discussion on diversity and inclusion. And today we are honored to be joined by two accomplished CEO's. In the channel and they're going to share some insights and experiences with us on how to create a more diverse and inclusive workplace. So for those of you that have been following us for a while, we've done a few of these episodes. I feel that there are very important to continue these conversations and try to have effective and meaningful change and we hope that today we will inspire you to take action and make a positive impact. On your company, on your clients, on your world, and without further ado, let's get started. Joining me in the class from Syncro and Michelle McCarty from Liongard. Ladies, how are?

Good. How are you, Marvin?

I am doing good. Thank you for taking the time out. I know that as CEO's, you're very busy. So the time is much appreciated. So why don't we go ahead and start real quick with giving the viewers and listeners and idea of who you guys are? So Emily with Syncro, please can you give us a little bit of your background and what you're doing there at Syncro?

I'll start with Synchro Synchro. For those of you who haven't heard, is an all-in-one RM and PSA platform, with Rd. access as well. So we basically try to provide everything that a growing MSP needs to run their business and you know we really listen to our partners. So we're all about growing with our. Partners and really, you know, hearing what they need and making sure we're delivering on that and growing with them. So that's our kind of core offering. And then just a little bit about myself, I joined Syncro almost two years ago, a little less than that, but almost two years ago I've been CEO and prior to that it was at a company that some people might know. Data in the industry and I ran a lot of different departments there and had a wonderful learning opportunity. That was really my introduction to the MSP space and to MSP's and their business challenges and needs. And I got to hear a lot about. That when I. When I worked with the tech support group. Many, many, many all the issues, but also all of the growth stories and all of the opportunities as well, which really made he's going to fall in love with the MSP space. And so I'm really happy to be back at Syncro and prior to that, I have a degree in engineering, computer engineering. So I've been sort of in tech even before I started my career in the MSP space and been working at a. A variety of different tech companies during my time, so a little bit about my background.

Alright, thank you, Michelle.

Well, like Emily, I absolutely love the MSP community and my journey is a little different than Emily. So I've only been at Liongard as CEO for the last two months. So she was two years. I'm two months, but I have vast experience in the MSP space. So I was 17 years. There's at CA Technologies and different parts of the partner ecosystem, sales, marketing and engineering went on to start to Start Communications, which was a unified communications company that sold through MSP's into the space and then exited that business for about 500 million. To in a 2 park, exit to Sangomand Comcast, and then went on to become an MSP and. Is CEO of one of the largest MSP's over $100 million MSP. Logically, where I got such an education having been on the tech vendor side for nearly 25 years of my career to going to be an MSP and feel the real difference. Was so eye opening and it also just put me in a place where I said, you know, my super my super talent is in driving growth and. Helping MSP's better their business and help with their profitability, and when I found the opportunity at line guard, it just seemed like Kismet, frankly. So for those of you who don't know what line guard is, we are configuration change detection and response. So you think about all the problems and challenges. You have by this landscape of changes that happen in the cloud with users, assets, endpoints all the way through. You know, as any operational changes happen in your business and being able to get visibility to what those changes are and the. Risks that that might. Come of it is really, I think, mind blowing in terms of being able to have that kind of capability that help you get to help you get in front of challenges for IT. Governance and doing cyber security risk mitigation.

So the format today will be the three of us just having a little chat, a little discussion. We've got some bullet points and some questions we may or may not get to, depending on how the flow goes. But I do want to say to everyone that is watching live. There is a little chat on the side there. So if you have some. Some questions want to go ahead and say thank you for a couple of comments. Cass Cooper, very excited for this chat. Hi, Emily, Michelle and Marvin. So those can be thrown in there and we'll get to them as. We go so. Normally we would start with a little question about, you know, what do you. Think diversity is. About I want to start with this and I want to ask you guys a question. So just attended the Patch 8 beyond an audio conference and one of the best things that happens at conferences is all that time in the hallways. After hours that you get to sit and hang with other people. Usually it's to talk about your stack and what are you doing in your business and what do you think of this. Well, one night I ended up having a discussion with three or four, four other attendees, and we got to talking about diversity. We had just left the N.W.A concert and it was just funny to watch the observations. Me as a black guy sitting in an audience full of white people. Dancing and Nelly and all of that. And I don't know how we got on to it, but we got on to it and I found it at times awkward because they were asking me to try to explain what I felt. During that time, as well as other times, and trying to explain to them well, when do you feel offended or when do you feel that diversity is not happening and it's just a whole discussion? So I kind of want wanted to ask you guys, how do you guys deal with situations like that when people are trying to ask you, explain what you mean? When you're not feeling included or something like that, do you do you have thoughts that you can help me with the next time I do?

Could you get me a cup of coffee, Marvin? Yeah, that would be. You know, those are the kinds of I think you know, honestly, honestly, you know, I'm not offended by when people ask me about what my experience is as a woman, as a CEO. Or growing up through the business, but. I think they don't always understand the little experiences right being the one that's asked to go get the coffee for the meeting or being the person who's assumed to be the administrative assistant versus the executive in the room. Those are the things And I think just calling that out and you know and when people. Make those kinds of mistakes, you know, giving them some, again, being humble enough as a leader to go, hey, they're human. And maybe they won't make that mistake the next time. If we're human and how we interact with someone from, that's. That's from my perspective.

And I think, you know, I take every opportunity to talk about, you know, awkward, awkward things we do that at Syncro in daily life. So yes, it is awkward sometimes. Times, you know, maybe the intent is not that great depending or you don't know. You can't trust the intent. But I kind of view every, every exchange like an opportunity and I think change has to start with curiosity. So to me I try to interpret it as with good intent and with curiosity, and it's a learning moment. Help these people. Some someone in the group, even myself, learn about what different experiences are. And these conversations are going to be awkward. Like I'm not. How you have some of these conversations without it being awkward or people making mistakes in how they're expressing themselves? I think that's part of the process to have change. So I think being a bit forgiving. But also holding people accountable in those conversations, like Michelle said, saying when it makes you feel uncomfortable or people cross the line, or you have to correct like, well, actually, you know that's. Not how I. Would say that or and I am taking that in a way maybe you're not intending. I think that dialogue is part of the transformation we're going through because we're not perfect.

All right, so. I'll have some thoughts on that. We'll come back to it maybe at the end and I'll tell you how I ended that.

Thanks for starting with the softball, Marvin.

Yeah, you know, Michelle put a post in there saying Marvin likes to ask the hard questions. So we're diving right in. But let me ask how about this as a softball question. I know that, Michelle, that you've been in this CEO just for a few months, but you've been in the industry for a while, Emily, we know your history, what types of changes and let's start with the positive that you have seen in the industry. Four women, and in particular women CEO's.

Yeah, I mean, you know, when I started, so I was thinking back, I would, I had to do. Math this morning. I was like, so when did I? Enter the tech industry again. Oh no, the numbers bigger than I wanted. But you know, I entered and I, I did computer engineering. So this was 1996 when I started university. But just to put a date on it because Marvin you were you were you were teasing. That's about how old. We are earlier, so I started one.

Even how even how young you are.

I was one of 10 women in my. Like orientation program and then you know just 10% women in the program overall. And I think as I look around you know certainly at Syncro but also just in my experience in in MSP, understand tech companies, I think that percentage has definitely increased. So just the amount of you know, different types of people entering tech and staying in tech and having. Theirs is definitely. And then I've been. Maybe I've been lucky. And that's not true everywhere. But I have been very fortunate to have examples and role models of women in leadership position positions, whether that was just, you know, one level ahead of me or, you know, running the company or the exec team level to point to, to see that like, oh, this is possible. And if there's more? Instances of that, and that's one thing that's definitely, you know, change for the positive.

I see it. I see it very much the same way Emily does. The fact that we're on this podcast today together two women CEO's in the same industry that. Are able to have these kinds of discussions itself is a is a proof point that things are getting better and I was also lucky I had role models growing up within CA Technologies that were female leaders in IT in, in sales in, in marketing in all these different areas. Was so that was very helpful for me to continue those, I'll call it coaching relationships along the way. And when I think about how many more women there are to have those kinds of coaching relationships with than there were when I started out, I think. That really is a sign that things are getting much better.

So there have been some reports and I don't know if you guys had a chance to read the links I sent and all of that. But the reports from last year and previous year try to indicate that there are women leaving the tech industry in droves. Now I don't see that. And to be honest, I wasn't really paying attention because I was paying attention to the color line. But when I went to the recent conference, there was a lot more women at that particular conference and I don't know if it was just. Because you know. Of a new conference. A lot of the people that work for packs eight are women and I don't know the numbers and the statistics and stuff. But I don't see that and I you know, the fact that you mentioned that you know, we have women CEO's here and there were a lot to choose from. So the numbers seem to me like they're increasing. How do you guys see it?

I think I think first of all, you're looking out a lot at the vendor community more so than the MSP's themselves. I did not see when I was and sadly, when I was CEO of an MSP, it wasn't like I got tons of resumes of women to be in with and the women that. I did have. Let's say pandemic and just post pandemic childcare. Super hard issue right now, especially during the pandemic and ultimately people having to choose where they spend their time. Do they prioritize their family life from the perspective of I can't get care. And trying to manage a household can be very difficult, so I. Think at the. At the mid level to smaller MSP level, my sense is that there are probably women who are leaving more often to make those difficult choices between career and family, you know, especially during the pandemic era, I think that. That really happened quite a bit, I think. A lot of the vendor community tries to put in place things to, I'll say, secure women into roles and keep them there and give more levels of flexibility. I'm seeing more of that happen at the vendor level, but I think it's got to be. Harder at the. Mid level small business level to be able to have those kinds of safety Nets. For women, and so I do think women are leave.

Yeah, and I agree, I you know the data, the data talks, I believe the data right, I don't think you know you asked us for the positives that have changed in the industry. But I don't think either of us would say we're there. You had a problem solved. And I do think I agree with Michelle. There's been a lot of pressures throughout the pandemic in the last few years and people sort of making life decisions. And balancing stressors and factors in their lives and trying to cope with all those things. And I think you know you, you point to like, well, the conference had more women or maybe this vendor has more women. I think there's pockets. Where there's flexibility and there are environments that might be different than the norm or different than the standard. I think the standard environment is still really, really difficult to. I don't know. I don't want to say survive. In or maybe survive depending on your life situation. And then you have pockets where. Yeah, I agree, Michelle, a micro MSP, you know 1-2 person shop is doesn't have can't afford the flexibility or to create that flexibility just can't afford to do it where maybe there's pockets. Of companies that. That can afford to create that environment can. Can afford to challenge the? Norms and do things differently.

So for the two of you coming in as CEO of a company. Two questions I'm going to ask about that one. The research also says that. Organizations that have women at the top have more diverse organizations top to bottom. When you look at your organizations versus others in our industry, do you think that that's true?

Well, for Syncro, I know it's true because we make a very conscious effort to create that environment, number one, and to attract that talent. And #2, we measure it and you know we have a lot of practices to make sure that we're building a different environment. So our exec team is 70% women. Our leadership team, so the VP level is 70% women and our exec team is 43% by POC. So that but that didn't like magically happened just because I'm a woman. I put emphasis in creating that team, and I put and my leadership team puts emphasis on expanding that to the entire employee base every day. And like the practices and what we emphasize is important to get done every day. So it's a very conscious effort.

And I think you kudos to you, Emily, for, for but I think that women LED organizations are more diverse. And it's not just about having more women, it's about more diversity in general. And for us, I look across the population of Liongard and it's extremely diverse. You know we have, we have a female CFO, we have Faisal. You know we look at the diversity of our. Of our team from. Again, a nationalities perspective, you know Joe Allpak, our founder is Indian and Vin, our head of marketing is Asian. I mean we. Have a very diverse executive team as well, and I'm really proud of that. And I think if you look through our organization, you see. That as well.

Do you think that that's something that happens because of the way that you saw the industry or you saw the positions as you were rising, you know, when you guys started? Off in positions and as you moved up, you made a conscious effort to say I'm going to make sure it's different for those coming behind me.

Well, I think I made the conscious effort to go to Liongard because I. Saw that kind. Of environment already. So I can't say that I've created that environment there, but I was conscious in choosing my next role to be at a company that aligned with my vision. Around DI OK.

Yeah, I think that's very important too, for whatever level you're at. I mean, you have the choice of company you're going to and choosing one that is welcoming, that encourages belonging, that spends time, that has send signals, right, that they're focused on making everyone feel like they belong and spending energy on that. And so it's a little bit chicken and egg, right. Michelle is like, if you choose, if you choose the spot that cares, then you'll have more influence too. So that it kind of builds on each on itself, so you know Synchro was already a very welcoming environment before I got there. I hope the actions I've taken have enhanced that and it kind of cascades down, right? I've always wanted to create and use my influence to create an environment that's different and that kind of engenders others that want to same flexibility or that same freedom to create something different and attracts them. Not to come work. So it kind of is this like reinforcing cycle?

I just want to acknowledge the people in the chat. Thank you for asking questions and comments. We'll try to come back and get to some of those, but I want to ask you guys, I hope this is. A softball question.

You can ask us hard questions.

I know, but I like to sprinkle, you know. Were there any role models that you guys had before you became CEO that kind of, you know, helped you guided you along the way? And then after you became CEO, did you find more peers that were willing to help you?

Go you go, Michelle.

So I have one, I have a group of women who have been very helpful to me as I, I grew up one particular, her name is Joanne Moretti. She's currently CEO at a company called fictive, but she was a general manager. At CA, when I was a young executive growing up and she really poured herself into me and as. I grew in roles, you know, I watched her go toe to toe with men who underestimated her or didn't take her seriously, and I saw her succeed over and over again. And so that gave me confidence as I sort of grew into my new roles. And I would use her as a confidant. I continue to use her as a confidant today. But I've created this additional circle of women leaders, CEO's like Catherine Rose, who's in the chat with us right now with channel wise, you know, had had been a real inspiration to me in terms of being a founder. Moment and the mentality you need to have when you're going into a start up so it has grown as I've got and I'm I now look to Emily and say look, I hope I can now leverage Emily is great knowledge from her experience. At Synchro And previously as well. So I think it does grow as you get more influence and you gather more spheres of influence as you grow into a larger and larger roles. But men, men are important too. I want to say that there's a ton of men who I could not have gotten to the place that I am without their. Guidance and help. I'll start with my husband, who was a stay at home Dad for four years to help me so I didn't have to worry about those things. So and I saw. Thought of bias that he experienced taking that decision to be a stay at home Dad, so I'll start with him. But other executives Norm Worthington, who was the CEO and founder of Star to Star believe, believed in me and pushed me into my first CEO role. So folks like that who have really poured into me over the years.

Yeah, very well, said. And I think for me, the role model question is always difficult because I think, you know, we talked before about it. It's kind of important to see yourself or someone who looks like you or that you can identify with whatever that you know flavor that looks like in a role that you might aspire to. I think that's important, and that's maybe where the role model piece. Comes in, but for me the more. Important part, at least in my career, has been twofold. One has been exec coaches or any kind of coach, whatever, whatever level you're. That I have been very, very fortunate. I had a very early boss who believe that everybody should just have a coach. It's like playing basketball or a sport like, everybody's got a coach so you can get better. It's not a it's not a bad thing, right? You're not doing bad just because, yeah. You need a coach, so I, you know, had that philosophy ingrained in me. So I've been fortunate. To have early sort of exposure to having a coach and that's just been become sort of the norm. Really influential in helping me reflect on you know, how am I being perceived? What's my style? How can I improve and getting that feedback? And then the second thing has been, like Michelle said, having a mentor or someone who sponsors you in the organization. And so I was really, really fortunate at data. Was that like? Gave me a ton of opportunities. These are the people who like see your potential and also have the ability to give you an opportunity. And Michelle, yes, you have to say you have to say yes to it and you have to, like, accept it and be willing to tackle it. But it's really like access to opportunities, I think across the board. Are not just women, but all kind of marginalized groups is really one of the core problems. So if you have someone, man, woman, whatever position they're in, that can give you access to an opportunity, that's really, you know, like what's going to, you know, help you grow and moving forward.

Mike, so let's take a little bit of a break here from me asking you guys questions. I didn't prepare you for this. So I'm going to turn the tables and ask you guys, do you have any questions for me?

I have a question for you. I don't know if it's a softball though. I met my medium, medium. I'm curious in, you know, because you run an MSP and you also go to a lot of conferences you were talking about being exposed. When you when have, have you, you know, have you worked directly with women in the past and what's kind of been, what's been some of the challenges around that or not have you felt like it just flowed naturally? Like there's.

Well, well, I can say that I have hired women as techs for my business and I have worked with women CEO's of other. Piece and vendors. So one of my favorite cable vendors was, you know, 22 gals that ran a cable company and they were fantastic. Unfortunately, they moved out of the area, but they were my vendor of choice and it wasn't specifically because they were in because they were. They were good, they did quality. In terms of how I've viewed it, it's listen, I've had to deal with diversity my entire life, and I never really see it as diversity. I just gravitate to who's doing the better job, who makes me feel the most comfortable. And that's what I gravitate to. So I don't know if I have a great answer for you, but that’s my.

I think my question sort of piggybacks on that. You know I. I'll oftentimes feel like there's still a challenge for women in the networking part of the business with MSP's because there is still so much that's based around. Let me take you out for a round of golf or drinks or and. Does it? Is there any? Awkwardness from your. Perspective on the male to female networking aspects of you know interacting and how do you how have you managed through that or how have you seen your peers manage through that? That's not a softball.

That that may take the balance of the time. So you're right, there are those. Those peer group mentalities, those cliquish things that happen and I'll speak from the experience of so first of all being a black man, I. Think that there are things. That I know that people will do. And they assume that because I'm black. I'm not interested when I do things like I golf and people. Oh, and they're shocked to hear that I golf. I purposely listen to different types of music so that when we're out and about and doing things that you know. People just. OK, well, we can do any type of musical event with Marvin. Or invite to concerts or whatever. It is probably the hardest thing is probably dealing with the female side of it. Because I see multiple sides because I see women. Who really will? Overcompensate to be like the men. And they'll be at the bars and they'll drink and they'll curse and, you know, save the saucy jokes and comments to feel like a part of the group there. That's something that's just seems. Awkward and pushed and forced and not going to say I don't like it because some. Of them are probably. Watching you do that. But you see that you see where there's that overcompensation. And then you see the other side of it as well, where they're afraid to speak up and, you know. Oh well, the guys won't like it, so I'm not going to bring it up. It's it is interesting to watch and. It's harder to talk about.

Well, I think it's it gets to the heart of things. Ultimately, you know, authenticity in my mind matters. And being who you are and if you drink, then you drink with everyone. If you if you golf, which I. Don't frankly, but I love to. Go fishing, anybody? Want to go on a fishing trip? I'm in. I don't. I don't necessarily need to be sent to the spa for every women's, although again a trip to the spa is not necessarily a bad thing either. But I think having authentic conversations about what we like, who we are being, you know, as executives, as people and. And being able to have awkward conversations, you know, I think it's important. I just think that just being able to show up And. Be have someone say come along with me to whatever, whatever they may be doing. Whether you again I I'll sit at the bar and drink a club soda to be in the interactions, but I don't drink really. And having friends who are like comfortable with that and bring me in that makes me feel good and makes me feel included. So as long as that continues to happen for me and my team and women that I work with, that's great. But again, I do feel that there's often this. Awkwardness like are we are, should we be inviting the women to go do these things with us? And I guess my message, I don’t know how many men are actually listening right now, but my message is invite us, you know, make us a part of things. We're just people.

And that and that goes back to the curiosity thing though. You know, if you're feeling like you're not sure if you should invite women, right, or you're wondering who am I going to exclude this group or how? Maybe you know, instead of what you, you ask and maybe you're wrong. Or maybe think of a different activity, right? Like if you're. You already can. Acknowledge that this is going to create maybe some. Some exclusion or your think it might. Maybe there's a better activity to do or maybe ask, you know a group And try something new and see what happens. So there's definitely this curiosity piece, and then I agree, like on the authenticity part, that's kind of where I feel like it's about belonging, you know, can't can you go to the bar and not drink and still feel like you belong there? And you're being yourself, but you're also participating in the activity. There's this stat. It was came out a few years ago that like 60% of people hide their real identities at work or some part of their identity at work. And that's really like what DI or an inclusive environment means to me is like I can show up as myself. I don't have to pay a tax. I don't have to pay the tax of hiding some part of pretending I'm, you know, pretending on something I'm not to fit into the group or go golfing or whatever it is. And that's OK and, you know, and it's still a welcoming and a good experience. So yeah, I think I think we're seeing some of that change, but I still I still think. We have we have a ways to go.

So let me ask. The reverse of that question in a way that. Tries to explain some of what I was thinking. So when I have talked with other women in the channel and they've talked about their women's groups, that they go to, I know that there are some that actually have dropped out of those groups because they feel that it is purely a man bashing session. And that's the place where you know that it's just you go and you complain about the men in the channel and why don't. They let us. Do this so if I'm hearing that, I know that other men are hearing. That and that. That could be a reason why maybe we don't ask women because we're going to get talked about in those meetings. I can tell by looking your face. You probably haven't been in one of.

Those sessions, I mean, but that might be a sense of because again, some of the. My biggest champions have been men. And some of the biggest attractors have been women, frankly, and over the course, I mean, again, I think we get down to the heart of it. It's about humans and how we communicate with one another and how kind we are to one another and how we make people feel a sense of belonging. And I can tell you that in any of the women of the channel type of groups that I've been in. Or women in IT. I have not seen them being men bashing sessions that maybe that's a perception, but that's definitely not something that I have I have seen.

Yeah, and I think. Me neither, but. But I do think the element of truth there or the element I can agree with is that each affinity group that now we're talking about women, but there's other sort of marginalized groups, they need a space to discuss their experiences together. That's like safe and. Hopefully it doesn't end at, you know, here's the thing. The sucky thing that happened to me. Hopefully it's with the goal of like and how can I like? How should I handle this? Help me process this. What can I do? Differently next time, not that. It's on the person that it happened to, always to fix it, but a space where they can process that. Through and have different perspectives and feel supported. I think is important as part of you know the change we have to create, not the only thing for sure, but it is important to sort of like have know that you're not alone in those experiences.

So Michelle, I want to go back to a point you made where you said, you know, you've found some women. As the biggest detractors. So I know that as a black man, sometimes it's on me to represent all the blacks in the community and then of course, if there's two of us, you know, do we stay apart from each other? Do we try to compete? For being, you know, the black man in the room or something like that. When it comes to ask this appropriately. But there's also a sense of. Amongst other blacks in ministry.

So like there was there was for me when I was young, as a, as a young woman in my in my 20s, I if there was another woman that we were maybe perceived as having similar skills skill set, it could be I like to say, like a fight to the death as I matured. I started to see these women as, Oh my gosh, that person has a power that maybe I could leverage or she could leverage my and now some of the people whom I would say were my rivals. In my 20s became my best friends in my 30s and now are like lifelong friends in my 40s in terms of people who again become my board of directors. I think that comes with the level of maturity, frankly And maybe I, maybe I just didn't have that maturity in my 20s that that cattiness. Could have been there, but as I've certainly grown as a person and as a leader, I don’t feel that sense of I don't even feel that sense of competition. I need to compete with myself. I don't compete with anyone externally anymore, and maybe that comes from having had great coaches and great peer groups that have helped me see that again. I can only the only real measure is how much better a person you are tomorrow than you were today. Not against other people. And I think the more we can get. People into that mentality and I know I have three. I have six children, but I have three young woman. I have an 18 year old, a 24 year old and a 26 year old and I try to impart that knowledge on them. Now that you don't have to compete with anyone, you're smart. You're beautiful enough. You just have to be a better, kinder, more thoughtful human every day. That that's what you should. Those, those are the things and to be happy. Those are the things that I try to import impart on my kids.

Emily want to jump on that one and.

Well, I mean. I have a few thoughts I think I agree with. I mean, I hope. Hope maybe this is naive. But II I. Hope that the structure has changed as Michelle was mentioning and maybe it's maturity of the individual. Maybe it's also been organizationally changing or systematically changing in that you know, I think the root of a lot of discrimination is a power structure and a struggle and a competition that like the more people. You live at the table. The more people you give opportunity to, the less you. Have for yourself. So it's this kind of either or all black and white, all or nothing. Whatever however you. You know, make the analogy and. I think that that changes. I think that changes individually as you mature in your career, you have more security about who you are and that you know there is enough opportunity to go around. And I hope that some of the structure is changing for people to see that we can be more, you know, welcoming to all types of people, all. Kinds of skill level all kind of, you know, skills and what people bring to the table and that doesn't necessarily have. To threaten your opportunity. So I think you know that's kind of for. Me, one of the fundamental changes. That has to happen for. Us to improve I hope it. Happening and II think it's I think women or that have that security and comfort with themselves are better able to support other women. That's not always the case, but when it. Is it's very beautiful.

So you mentioned that on that last point. So I tried to frame the question that I wasn't quite sure how to because I don't think either of you have this scenario where. Some women think they, you know, have impostor syndrome. You know, like, you know, which is weird because they, I know that they feel like they deserve it, but maybe it's still because of the pressures and stuff like that. How can we help make sure that women are not?

So I read I read. This question in advance and I was going to say, Marvin, you've cured me of impostor syndrome. I'm cheered, so unfortunately I could tell you I still, you know, I think a healthy dose of, you know doubt self doubt And wondering you know what can go wrong or wonder can I can I do this is kind of a healthy thing for an individual to have I really think. The problems or happens or, you know, becomes a problem when the organization. Enforces that and promotes a fear of failure or promotes. Like you know, yes. You have to deliver a. Certain level and or else you know and. And I think normalizing doubt and normalizing asking for help is part of solving the problem for everyone, and so an organization. I think that's an organization's responsibility. Actually, to make it OK, you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to be 110% certain that you can do something to try and do it. We're going to support you in that like we're. We're A-Team. Maybe somebody else. Has a skill you're missing, or maybe you can learn it and we can support you in that. I really think that the solution to solving impostor syndrome really lies in the organization rather than the individual. Now you know, I know there's extreme cases And all of that, but I think when people think about approaching a new task, I think it's normal to not know if.

You can do it. And I will. What Emily said in terms of curing my impostor syndrome, I think I wake up every day and in the various roles I play, not just as CEO, as step Mom as mom, as all the various you know, I oftentimes question, am I doing everything for everyone that I can and should be doing? And I think that that is healthy, it's what drives me to go a little bit further every day to prove that not if not to everyone else to myself that I can do whatever I set my mind to. And I do think organizations that help to it's an organization's responsibility. That's my peer. There's and my board's responsibility to say it's OK that you had an issue here. You're so great in all these other things we're going to help, whether that's a coach, whether that's, you know, giving, giving additional support in wherever that weak spot. Might be all of those things are how you can help a person get past the impostor syndrome. The other thing is again creating a level of a, call it a personal board of directors. Who's there to. At your lowest points to be able to say to you, are you kidding? You have this great you do this well and think about this. I I've been so fortunate to have that personal. I'll call it that personal board of. Directors, which is? Both men and women. Who help me get past those areas when I have self doubt.

I agree. I, Michelle. You clarified something for me, I think. You know the impostor syndrome with. A doubt is healthy when it drives you. To do better. The unhealthy line, you know, crossing the line to unhealthy is what it prevents you from trying, and so the organization needs to kind of, you know, encourage you to try that And your personal connections. And I've also maybe just like a really practical. Tip for anyone out there who's trying to, you know, aspire to leadership or grow their career. I've always found it really helpful to just ask like, well, what? What does success look like in this project role? You know, whatever you're taking on. Ask yourself that. Ask your boss. That ask the team whoever. Involved and then assess like, OK, where do I feel uncomfortable? What skill don't I have or why do I feel like I might not be successful and just put it on the table like I don't know? I've never led a team before. I'm going to need help from somebody knows how to do that to get this done. And go seek that support. I've always had great success saying like I don't know about this piece of it. I need help to solve that part. And then you know people, people will come.

Those weren't such hard questions. You guys answered them brilliantly.

They were asked brilliantly.

Let's check the time here. Well, we're going to skip a couple of the other ones, and I want to give you guys a chance to answer and share specifically for your companies. And Michelle, I know you haven't been there long, but I'm going to phrase in a way that hopefully you can you can answer, but what are some things that you have seen? In your company, either before you started or after you. What are the things that? They have done to promote DEI in the organization.

Well, again, I think a huge credit to the founder and co-founder and Joel Alapat at Liongard that they really set up a diverse workforce and they've been very thoughtful about making sure that. People do, feel included, we. You know, even in terms of, you know, Juneteenth is coming up, it's a it's a company holiday for our, for our teams, but really thinking about how things are changing in the world And sort of coming forth and trying to be a part of that change and pushing that change through. As well as just again keeping an open, honest, authentic culture where we are able to talk about these things where people are celebrate. I mean you may notice the AI generated multi color lion behind me. I mean that was developed last month for Pride Month. You know all of those things are again need to make people feel like we see them. They're included and I and I hope that just. Process individuals be. And authentic continues that culture at Liongard. But again, I can’t take any credit for that that's that was built in and something that I liked and shows when I came over to Liongard and continue, we'll continue as we go on.

And all those things take, you know, conscious energy can take money, can take time, can take focus, you know, take someone to coordinate it. And I think you know any, it's hard to name all the, the little things or all, all the combination of things that make it a more welcoming place, make sinker, more welcoming place. Or Liongard more welcome. But you know, people notice the time and energy put into those things. So synchronous, fully remote, which I think is a big way that we have flexibility for different you know folks with different types of needs. It allows a lot a lot of flexibility in terms of how they work, where they work. That kind of. Thing I think it really helps us attract A diverse sort of set of folks. We have Wellness days, which I think are really important. I know some of some things you might look at like, you know, you might think they're artificial or superficial or, you know, just. But like they really show where the organization is putting their attention and time. So Wellness Days is a day we take off every month. In addition to all the holidays or whatever else is going on which gives people down time to whether they want. To get stuff. Done on a weekday, or whether they want to take, you know, time with their family, whatever it is that they want to do with that. Time it shows that it's not all about work all the time. We care about you as a person, and we're going to put our money where? Our mouth is going to give you a whole day to do whatever you want. Every month, I think that really matters and I think making space to discuss really hard issues, even if it, you know, doesn't go perfectly to our, our, our discussion earlier might be awkward. It might, you know, make some people uncomfortable. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but we really do concertedly make space to talk about very difficult. Issues yesterday we had all company meeting. We had a transgender person come and talk about their experience transitioning for Pride Month. Last month, we had a lot of gender partnership circle. So we like we're, we're not, it's we're we don't shy away for having some really difficult conversations with the entire company because we want to push change forward and we want to be a space where people feel comfortable to express themselves even if that is awkward.

You 2 have helped to not make this awkward, so thank you very much for a delicately and very nicely answering questions here, let's see the time here. Let me go ahead and acknowledge people that are watching. Thank you all for. Joining us, we had a comment inspiring session. Thank you very much.

That was our goal. Whole reason we're. Here we should accomplished take the rest of the day off.

Oh, here's a question I don't I don't know if this is a great question, but I'm going to throw it up there anyway. What would be one or two suggestions to remove bias in an organization and provide equity to women?

Well, I can tell you some things that I have done in the past, I haven't necessarily implemented yet at Liongard, but in a previous company I was in one of the things is we remove people's names from their. From their resumes, so we didn't know if they were male, female, or nationality. That can create bias when someone reads a, reads a resume and it was very interesting to see the outcomes of that. And I do think that that is something that if you feel like you're that there is bias in your organization, some organizations. Are better than others. Around that, it's a way to make sure that in hiring that you're looking that you're not. Overlooking, I should say, people who do it to an unconscious bias and you know the other. The other thing is. When you're and, I like to talk to focus on a lot on the hiring piece and also on the promoting pieces. When you're going to hire or promote someone, have all candidates been looked at. You know if there are no women candidates or there are no people of color or there's no then. Can we look for another? Can we continue to look, can we can we make sure that we've uncovered every stone to make sure that we have all the best options in front of us because oftentimes I think there's just a rush to get someone in a seat or to. And if we rush delivers the. Only you know white men as the options. Then you're, you know you might be missing out on some great opportunity. You may still wind up going with the person who. Let's make sure that we. Have a pool of people to choose from.

And I think it's. Really hard to pick one or two. But if you know but I so I. Don't like these questions, but I would say if I have to. Pick 21 would be pay equity and transparency. So at Sinclair, we also rolled out pay transparency this year, which was really scary. Like I said, we don't shy away from scary. Stuff so everybody knows what their pay scale is, where they fall on that scale, what you know, how it compares to the average for that role, what they have to do to get it to be higher. We look at pay equity across, you know, gender, race, everything, everyone in that role at the company And making sure it's fair. So that was really was. You know that I think a lot of companies have not tackled that because they're scared of it, but it has gone very well and I think it really helps ensure equity to women and other groups. That's one thing. And then the second thing I would say is. Ask the women what their experience is like. Take the time like, show the time, take the time and energy and show the interest. Showing the interest and starting that conversation will be a way that you can show that you're interested in it, and you'll get whatever the outcome is in that conversation. If you do it, you know, we'll provide more equity guaranteed.

Well, thank you for answering that. That was not a scripted question that came from the chat, so. I want to make sure that I honor your time and make sure that we don't keep you too long. So I'd like to go ahead and start wrapping up and I know that I had told you guys I would give you the opportunity. To you know. Have any last words or thoughts or? Give an impact statement or things of that nature. Start with Michelle. Do you have anything you'd like to leave with us?

I would just like to say that as much as building my own personal board of directors was important to me, I want to just extend myself as a resource to anyone listening that is looking to have someone to just be an ear and to provide advice. I think it's so important that. That we do that for our Community, so anyone who needs that level of support, please feel free to reach out michelle.accardi@lionguard.com.

And Michelle, you've been, you know, before we had Michelle And Marvin. But Michelle, just recently since we've just met, you've been so kind and so. Generous with your comments. Here and in the prep and on LinkedIn and everything. It's been really, really. I hope we can continue that relationship that we've. Just, you know, started to build. And I agree if there's anyone here who? Could use some. Advice or has a question? I'm CEO at syncromsp.com. II respond to all. And I also have no admin so guaranteed response from me whether you like it or not And happy to help anyone, anyone looking for sort of free advice or. Or leadership growth and. Yeah, please reach out and thank you, Marvin for. Hosting this session.

And thank you, Emily.

Well, first of all, I'm going to say very bold to just throw that information out there for anybody to contact you. I commend you for that being accessible and available is awesome. Especially since I've met you guys, it's been pretty amazing that the time that you've availed to me, you know, tiny little IT business owner and podcaster, Fort Lauderdale, FL. Thank you very much for your time.

Thank you, Marvin. And we're going to get you that demo of Liongard soon.

You had to put that out in the public, didn't you? All right. Well, I think that's going to do it for this panel discussion. Again, thank you very much. This has been the women CEO's of the channel on diversity inclusion, an important topic that we hope to continue to champion hopefully will help inspire people. To look at some initiatives more effectively and inspire other women to pursue leadership roles. Demonstrate diversity, empathy and adaptability. Hope I said that. Right. Good word here again. They've actually given out their contact information. You can also contact me here at the podcast marvin@itbusinesspodcast.com. We will continue these discussions. Of course, you can always go to the website. Find previous discussions and that's going to do it. So we'll let everybody get back to work and hope you enjoyed this. I find my intro, outro music. We'll say goodbye and it's coming up on lunchtime, so hope everybody has a good lunch. See you later.