742 IT Nation Connect: Live with Amy Roman and Cole Knuth

[Uncle Marv]
Hello friends, Uncle Marv here with another episode of the IT Business Podcast and we are streaming live in Orlando at IT Nation Connect at the Rosen Shingle Creek Resort and I'm here on Media Row and when I say Media Row, folks, there are several of us here. I think there is eight set up in a row so we've got people coming and going throughout the event today and tomorrow. Today's show is brought to you by Thread, the winner of last year's Pitch It competition and we are going live compliments of Rhythms.

Yes, we are powered by Rhythms, the internet in a box company. Uncle Marge has his own internet here, don't have to rely on the hotel. So that is how we're coming to you and with me right now is a new friend, Amy Roman, AmplifyGTM.

So just saying the name, nobody understands what that is. So Amy, first of all, welcome to the show.

[Amy Roman]
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here and I appreciate the opportunity.

[Uncle Marv]
You may have to say that again.

[Amy Roman]
Do you need me to say it louder? Louder. Louder.

So thank you very much for having me on this show. I appreciate the opportunity.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah, come on. You can't be shy here. So let's just get the awkward out of the way first.

AmplifyGTM, what is that? Who is that? What do you do?

[Amy Roman]
Sure. So officially, I say that we are a go to market consultancy.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay.

[Amy Roman]
And the thing is, though, I say that and I cringe as I say it because I'm not a huge fan of consultants. Because when I think of consultants, I feel like it's someone who comes in and they're like, Oh, yeah, do this, this and that. And then they go.

And that's where the hard work actually starts.

[Uncle Marv]
Right.

[Amy Roman]
So what I wanted to do is I wanted to create a consultancy where we actually stayed there and helped with all of the hard work. So I kind of come in at a fractional CRO level. So I'm looking at the full revenue stream from lead generation to actual revenue and profitability.

So money in the bank. And at the same time, I'll stay for the planning and we put together go to market plans and assessments and all of those types of things. But then I and my team engage for the ongoing execution.

So sales execution, marketing execution, so that we're making sure that it's not just a great strategic plan, but that strategic plan gets executed impactfully and efficiently, actually in the market.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. So I guess we can say, not a marketing firm, to a degree, not a sales firm, to a degree. But when you said fractional CRO, that kind of caught my attention.

Because I think that is where managed service providers, I don't know that we're new to the concept, but new to the idea of having somebody dedicated to looking at revenue from a holistic standpoint. Does that sound fair?

[Amy Roman]
That sounds very fair. And to strengthen your point, when I was founding it, I would talk to people in the beginning, and I think my message has gotten clearer over time. But I would say this is what it is that I see the company doing.

And they'll be like, Oh, so you're, they would be like, you're a marketing agency. And I was like, No. And they were like, Oh, you're a sales agency.

And I said, No, it's a revenue focused agency. And it's because I believe that the integration of sales and marketing is of critical importance. And there is someone who needs to be making sure that all aspects of the revenue system are optimized, but not just individually, but that they're integrated and working holistically.

And if any of that isn't there, you're going to suboptimize growth and profit.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. So let me go back now. And I looked you up just to kind of get an idea of where all this started for you.

So you were doing CRO stuff before. I was. Not specifically for MSPs, but for specific companies.

What, first of all, tell me how that started and what made you migrate into our space? Sure.

[Amy Roman]
So to give you perspective, my first job was as a sales rep at Duracell. And I graduated college and I used to put on khaki pants and a collar shirt, and I would put batteries on racks. I would drive around in my Ford Taurus, and I would put batteries on racks.

And then we had a small number of accounts where we could actually sell. And we had a quota. And that was the first job and I almost got fired from that job.

[Uncle Marv]
Do tell.

[Amy Roman]
I hear like, how do you get fired from putting batteries on racks? But the thing that I that I was doing there was that I was looking at it and I was doing what had always worked for me up until that point, which was to do everything perfectly. Get an A.

Everything that you do, get an A. And so the issue was that I was treating accounts that didn't count towards my quota, the same way that I was treating accounts that did.

[Uncle Marv]
Management didn't like that, didn't they?

[Amy Roman]
They did not like that. And so I can remember being on a payphone one time. And I often tell this story when I give presentations.

I remember being on a payphone. I'm out in Pennsylvania. My territory is Philadelphia out to Harrisburg.

And I'm on the payphone and I get and my boss basically asked me, she goes, What are you doing? Now, meanwhile, I'm doing everything in my head. Perfect.

And I am working until 11 o'clock at night, and it wasn't cutting it. And so we hang up the phone and I get in my car because I need to drive to my next account. And I think to myself, I'm about to get fired.

And I knew it. And so I admit I shed a tear or two. And then I put the car in drive and I went to my next account.

And I figured it out over the next six to nine months, which was don't treat all accounts the same 80-20 rule, which I hadn't learned up until then because I hadn't had to. And I finished that year and I was the number two sales rep in the nation.

[Uncle Marv]
Nice.

[Amy Roman]
So yeah, well, you know, give me a goal. And that's, that's kind of what happens. So but my point being and all of that, when you ask about kind of my origins, I took that and then I went and I applied that to everything else, all of the other positions that I had within consumer package goods.

So I'm a classically trained salesperson and marketer coming from CPG consumer packets package goods. I have sold or marketed everything from razors to hair color, to yogurt, to allergy medicine, to antifungal medicine. And I had gotten to the point where I looked at it, because what I like to do, like kind of managing really large brands where it's like you gain a 10th of a share point.

And that's really what you're expected to do. It's fine. I like kind of managing brands that are at a pivotal, a point of pivotal change, where you can really make an impact and see results.

And so CPG was going to kind of be steady. And I looked at it and I said, I want to do something more exciting. I want to go someplace where there's more growth, more activity, more excitement, faster pace.

And so I decided to, naively decided, I'm going to go into technology.

[Uncle Marv]
And this is where I wanted to see where the story turned.

[Amy Roman]
And so I decided I had this goal. I had sold so many different things. I thought to myself, if I did all that, I could do this.

I now know what a naive decision that was. But I mean, I'm sitting here today.

[Uncle Marv]
Well, you're here today, but when was that decision made?

[Amy Roman]
That was over 10 years ago. And I was actually talking to Jim Kennedy, who was CEO of a national MSP. They were based in the Northeast, but national customer base.

And I had met him through a networking group because at that time I was running a branding and design agency. And he had asked me, do you want to talk about a sales and marketing challenge that I have? I said, sure.

And he actually said, I'm interested in hiring someone to help with marketing. And so I said, well, I don't think I'm the right person, given my background, but I'd be happy to speak with you and we'll see what happens. So next thing you know, one conversation, two, three conversations, I take over marketing.

And because what he had said was we have an amazing company. We're fantastic operationally. Our customers love us, but they hadn't been able to drive growth consistently for five or six years.

Everything else was working wonderfully. And so I came in and I looked at it and we started making changes. They said, take over marketing.

And if you do a good job, you'll take over sales in nine to 12 months. I took over sales within three months. And from that point on, we made a whole bunch of changes.

We grew top line over 40%. We grew bottom line over 15%. And he sold the company in two years at a 2x the valuation versus when I had started.

Nice. And that was the start of me having the opportunity to sit with you today. Okay.

[Uncle Marv]
So as we were talking and getting ready for today, you had mentioned a couple of things that made me think back to my last live show where I had Jennifer Bleem on with MSP sales revolution. And she mentions a lot of the similar aspects to you. And I know that when you talked about almost getting fired because you were spending too much time with the two little clients.

It made me think of a question where Jennifer and I were talking about the nurture phase. How much time should you spend with a client during the nurture stage between prospect and onboarding and stuff. But even what you were talking about, if you have clients currently, you mentioned the 80-20 rule.

But how did you decide to make that shift as to what amount of time you spend with which clients?

[Amy Roman]
Yeah, that's a great question. So the thing I always talk about is that you have to build the foundation of the house first. And for revenue, for MSPs especially, that foundation are the core questions of who am I going to talk to, what am I going to tell them that's different, and how am I going to deliver value.

If you don't answer those questions well and have focus in terms of who you're talking to, what you're saying to them, and then making sure that each and every interaction with them is a positive interaction, the rest of it is all ball bearings. It doesn't matter how frequently you communicate with them. It doesn't matter if you do it via email or pay-per-click ads or whatever that is, or have a lovely website.

But you have to make sure that your strategy, the foundation of the house, is built right, and then you can build all the rest of it. And if that's right and you have the right strategy, everything else that you do, every dollar that you spend focused against that strategy becomes more effective. And so then you're not running up the hill.

You're running more on flat ground is the way I look at it.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. So a little different than the concept that a lot of us were taught about, the pumpkin plan.

[Amy Roman]
What's that?

[Uncle Marv]
Where you basically focus on the biggest pumpkins in the patch, and you feed them, you nurture them, and all the little ones, you kind of want to pick and move off to the side because you want to keep the big pumpkins and that's what you're striving. So every pumpkin after that is what you want to duplicate.

[Amy Roman]
I love it. I haven't heard that analogy before and I absolutely love it. And I guess what I'm saying is the strategy is defining which are the big pumpkins you're going to focus on.

Choose the right big pumpkins.

[Uncle Marv]
Choose the big pumpkins. Okay, so you started AmplifyGTM 2018, is that right?

[Amy Roman]
It was a little over a year ago.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh, that was something else.

[Amy Roman]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
That's right. Yeah, end of 2022, beginning of 2023, right? Okay.

And that focuses solely on MSPs?

[Amy Roman]
Mainly MSPs, but also technology companies. So I do work with some SaaS companies as well as overall B2B technology.

[Uncle Marv]
Right.

[Amy Roman]
But if you look at your target market, obviously you look at your target market and you've got like a bullseye, MSPs are the center of that.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. So that first tech company that you work with is still your client now?

[Amy Roman]
Yes. I'm actually here.

[Uncle Marv]
On their behalf?

[Amy Roman]
Yes. That's Jim Kennedy. He has a new software product for frictionless IT.

It's actually what his MSP was built on. And when I was selling it, so I was in a lot of the sales calls, I took that and used it to develop our unique value proposition and it was a differentiator. Right.

And so now he's selling it to MSPs across the community.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh, I will have to meet him. Nice.

[Amy Roman]
I will introduce him.

[Uncle Marv]
It's frictionless IT. That's correct. Okay.

Yes. Interesting. So are you here for them or are you here for you?

[Amy Roman]
Both. I'm always...

[Uncle Marv]
You've got to make it work.

[Amy Roman]
You've got to make it count. Always firing in all cylinders.

[Uncle Marv]
So as you're kind of here meeting people and stuff, what is, I guess, the differentiator with who you're going to talk to and know it's a good fit? Because I imagine that a lot of us aren't a good fit. But how do you define that as you're talking?

[Amy Roman]
Yeah. If I think about it, for me, my superpower is building a profitable, sustainable ecosystem. And so that's doing the right thing and the hard work and the infrastructure, building all of that day in and day out in order to create something that's going to generate short and long-term results over that extended period of time frame.

And that is hard work.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah.

[Amy Roman]
And it does require building an infrastructure. So if someone's looking to say, I want to address one piece of the puzzle, I want a silver bullet where I can do this one thing and generate results, that's not what I'm going to bring to the table. Like when I start out, I go in and I do an assessment and I talk to everybody who's involved in sales and marketing.

I look at all of the processes that are there in sales and marketing, and then I develop a solution to address the needs and the opportunities that I see in that particular client. So I don't have a one-size-fits-all approach. You can't just sign up and say, okay, I'm going to go.

Because I actually need to get in there and understand your business and then build something over time that is going to be impactful for you.

[Uncle Marv]
Right. So a company just can't call you up and say, hey, I need more leads. I want to generate a million more in sales.

Go.

[Amy Roman]
I'd probably be able to do it and make it work for a certain period of time, but eventually it's not going to work. It is just what it is. And quite honestly, there are other people, there's a lot of people who could do that.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. So I think I understand that what you're actually looking to do is be a fractional CRO for each of these companies, right?

[Amy Roman]
That's correct.

[Uncle Marv]
So it's not just a one-stop shop. It's not six months, 12 months. We're talking long-term commit?

[Amy Roman]
Usually what I say is I ask people to commit for a year, but I have a 90-day cancellation clause. I mean, I'm there to deliver. I'm there to deliver numbers for you.

So if I'm not delivering, then we can at least give you 90 days to turn it around if you're not happy. And if not, then we can part ways and I'll still be there to consult with you on an ad hoc basis.

[Uncle Marv]
Now, I've heard 90 days might not be enough for some folks.

[Amy Roman]
What do you mean?

[Uncle Marv]
Well, I mean, 90 days to turn stuff around, I'm thinking you're just probably beginning to make a dent in that first 90 days, right? Yeah. I mean, it takes 30 to 60 to understand the full process.

[Amy Roman]
A hundred percent. So usually what I say is you've got four to six weeks of assessment and planning. But that being said, I mean, you get a feel when you're talking to someone like even after the assessment, let's say the assessment's the first two to three weeks.

And then I'm going to come in for that assessment and I call it the insights and implications. We're going to talk about what's happening in your business and what I'm seeing and the places where I think we should potentially emphasize moving forward. And we're going to have a collaborative working session because I'm not going to hit it perfectly right straight out of the gate.

And we're going to have a collaborative working session to say, yeah, I think we want to do this. I don't know if this is going to work, but we're going to emphasize here. And so we have that conversation and then we develop a plan.

And then from there we move into execution. But when you're working with someone on a ground level day in and day out, either the working relationship goes on or it doesn't. And that's just a fact of life.

It's like conversations. They gel or they don't.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. And so with that. Is this gelling?

[Amy Roman]
I hope so.

[Uncle Marv]
I'm going to make sure since you threw that in there.

[Amy Roman]
We're live. Got to say yes. So the thing that I say is the 90-day cancellation clause because I don't want someone feeling like, well, I signed up for a year, so I have to keep going.

No one's used it yet. But I'm so I guess I'm doing okay.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. Yes, folks, we are live. So let me ask.

We'll kind of lighten up the load here. Where are you from?

[Amy Roman]
Connecticut.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. So did you come down to Florida early?

[Amy Roman]
I did. I was so I was actually I've been here for the last couple of weeks. I wind up spending my time.

I know. I haven't I have a 15-year-old that I'm missing very much right now.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay.

[Amy Roman]
So my older one.

[Uncle Marv]
Why is that at Universal or Disney or something?

[Amy Roman]
Oh, no. He's back home. So I'm looking.

I'll see him on Friday.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh, you left. You come to Florida to party and not the 15-year-old. I get it.

[Amy Roman]
More for work.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay.

[Amy Roman]
More for work. But I've been having a really nice time catching up with them.

[Uncle Marv]
Were you at some other conferences or just.

[Amy Roman]
I did. I had a couple of conferences and all that. But I actually wind up splitting my time between here and Florida because my family has a place in Florida.

So I'm lucky in that respect.

[Uncle Marv]
Let me guess. Boca. West Coast.

The Villages. Sarasota.

[Amy Roman]
Benita, Naples area.

[Uncle Marv]
Benita. Yeah. Benita Springs.

Nice area.

[Amy Roman]
It is.

[Uncle Marv]
Got some friends there.

[Amy Roman]
You know when it's calm and quiet and peaceful.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah.

[Amy Roman]
I just don't know what your friends are doing.

[Uncle Marv]
So the wife and I went over one weekend and she has to get to the beach.

[Amy Roman]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
It was too packed. Oh really? Too crowded.

[Amy Roman]
Oh wow.

[Uncle Marv]
Yes. So from that perspective not so much.

[Amy Roman]
Yeah. That's. Well in season yeah.

It's probably. It's probably pretty crowded.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah.

[Amy Roman]
My parents are in kind of a community so I just kind of stay local and.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh you can keep out the riff raff like us.

[Amy Roman]
I got you. No that's not it. They have a nice gym.

They have a pool and I just kind of chill.

[Uncle Marv]
Alright.

[Amy Roman]
I decompress.

[Uncle Marv]
Let me guess. A block away from the beach.

[Amy Roman]
A couple yards. Like three miles I think.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh okay. Alright.

[Amy Roman]
I grew up. I'm the first person in my family to go to college.

[Uncle Marv]
Really?

[Amy Roman]
Yeah. I didn't grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth by any means.

[Uncle Marv]
I wasn't suggesting that.

[Amy Roman]
Well in my world a block away from the beach is pretty fancy so.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh. I get you.

[Amy Roman]
I get you. That's big time.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. I think it means the same down here now. Because you can't get a block away from the beach unless you are multi.

[Amy Roman]
Yeah. Multi-millionaire. It's crazy.

It's a beautiful area. So a lot of people want to be here.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. But there are people there that got in early before the real estate took off. So that's why I asked.

[Amy Roman]
That's why we have the family place. They talked about selling it. I was like please don't sell it.

Fine.

[Uncle Marv]
They probably tripled their money.

[Amy Roman]
Absolutely.

[Uncle Marv]
But then the question is where would you go then?

[Amy Roman]
That was exactly my point. Because everything else is triple too.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. Alright. So staying through the week.

[Amy Roman]
Absolutely.

[Uncle Marv]
Going to the block party.

[Amy Roman]
Which one is the block party? What is that?

[Uncle Marv]
Let's see. So tonight. Flo Rida tonight.

Oh. And Stone Temple Pilots tomorrow.

[Amy Roman]
I actually like Flo Rida.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah?

[Amy Roman]
Yeah. Okay. I actually have to see that.

My kids and I used to play that. What is it? The house song.

All the time. You know what I'm talking about?

[Uncle Marv]
I do. But I'm not going to say it on air here. Because I don't want anybody.

They make fun of my music choices.

[Amy Roman]
Oh. Okay. So the kids and I used to play that song all the time.

So I'm definitely going to see that.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. Going to do the flip camera to show your kid.

[Amy Roman]
Yes.

[Uncle Marv]
Look at where I'm at.

[Amy Roman]
That's a great idea. I actually got an upgrade to this crazy hotel room for no reason whatsoever. So, of course, I took a video and I sent it to the kids.

I was like, look. Apparently, mom's in Portland now.

[Uncle Marv]
Leave us at home. You said the 15 years at home. And then you had started to say you have another one that's off in school?

[Amy Roman]
I do. 18 at Rutgers University.

[Uncle Marv]
Rutgers?

[Amy Roman]
Yeah. Got into their finance program. I'm very proud of them.

[Uncle Marv]
Is that significant? I don't know.

[Amy Roman]
It wasn't easy. There's a lot of really smart kids there. We were sitting at the orientation and they're talking about SAT scores and all that type of thing.

And he leans over and he goes, how did I get in here, mom? And I said, I don't know, but we're going to take it. Nice.

[Uncle Marv]
Well, that's good. So you've got, now are both going to go? To Rutgers?

No, to College of General.

[Amy Roman]
Right now, that's the plan.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. Because you mentioned you're the first in your family to go. I know.

I assume that now sets a pattern for the others.

[Amy Roman]
Yeah, they work hard. They have a little bit of my drive in them.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay, we don't know each other that well, but the way that you said that makes it sound like they're going to work hard. Whether they want to or not.

[Amy Roman]
You know what? I've worked from home for the past 15 years. So since they were young, they've seen my work ethic, the dedication that I have.

All of that. And they understand that success comes from hard work. And so because it's just been a part of their life, and they knew even from young kids.

Like, okay, mom's on the phone or mom's on a video call, we can't bother mom right now. So they've grown up with that.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay, very nice. So, Amy, we've gone way off course. We have.

[Amy Roman]
Live, I forgot that we were live.

[Uncle Marv]
That's what we try to do.

[Amy Roman]
You're good at what you do. I feel like we were just having a conversation.

[Uncle Marv]
We are. That's all we do. I want to thank you for stopping by, and it was great to actually meet you in person now.

We've been kind of messaging back and forth for the last couple weeks, but this is good. And I hope to talk to you more. I want to dig in a little deeper on stuff.

It's kind of hard to do here.

[Amy Roman]
Absolutely. No, it's an absolute pleasure. I believe that I originally reached out to you, the power of social media.

So I'm really, really glad to be here, and I'm glad to have spoken with you. Thank you for the opportunity.

[Uncle Marv]
Thank you very much. All right. Let's see.

I don't know if I've got somebody coming up next or not. So for those of you watching, I'm going to keep the live stream going. Of course, you'll have the cam to watch the goings on here, and I will be back.

We have the Pitch It competition, where I will be presenting steak knives to the third-place winner. So enjoy that. Thanks again to Amy Roman.

You're the founder of AmplifyGTM, right? I am. That must have been nice.

[Amy Roman]
I call it the mental and emotional equivalent of jumping off a cliff. That's founding a company.

[Uncle Marv]
I tried to ease it out for you.

[Amy Roman]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
All right, folks. We'll be back, and I'll have Amy Roman again. We'll chat more.

So see you soon. Hala. Hala.

Hello, friends. Uncle Mark here. Welcome back to another episode of the IT Business Podcast.

We are live on day two at IT Nation Connect in Orlando, Florida, and it is the night after the Flo Rida concert. So it is going to be fun. If you've caught the stream before this, you saw the cam shot that I have.

The breakfast is literally right outside of our podcasting area. So there will be lots of people coming by, waving, doing all sorts of stuff. But we're going to keep right on rolling.

If you've not checked out the show yet, since we've been here, we are here at IT Nation at the Shingle Rosen Resort, the Rosen Shingle Resort in Orlando, Florida, and having a lot of fun here, doing a great thing. We are sponsored by Thread, the winner of last year's IT Nation Pitch It contest, and we are powered by Rhythms, the internet in a box. So that is how I'm able to live stream here over the hotel Wi-Fi.

And with me, I have my first guest today, Cole Knuth, president and CEO of FifthWall. So how are we doing, Cole? Very good.

Yeah. Thanks for having me on. You made it up early.

Yeah.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, getting my talking juices going, everything IT Nation, everything MSP.

It's been a good start to the day.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. So I guess we'll get started with a little background. So you came over from PAX 8, but as we were chatting, realized that it's not a direct connection, but I used to buy a product from your company.

Well, not your company now, but a company you had or you were with years ago. Yeah. Like 15 years ago, Rexel?

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah. Yeah. I worked in the electrical industry for about eight years before I found IT.

I did really well in that space, but it's a blue collar industry. I had a lot of success. Actually, my first management job was with Rexel in West Texas.

Became a branch manager out in Odessa, Texas. Okay. I was really young, didn't have any idea what I was doing.

And believe it or not, as big as that company is, they have no training program. Really? Yeah.

So Rexel, when I was there, was about $16 billion globally. They were that big? They were that big.

Yeah. Six in the US alone. Intellectual distributors in all kinds of markets all over the world.

Yeah. I basically packed up my stuff, went out to West Texas. They gave me keys to the building and they shook my hand and said, All right, well, we're in Dallas and we need us.

I was like, that's a five hour drive. I'm like, how do I log in? What do I do, right?

Oh, man.

[Uncle Marv]
So the office that I, well, the storefront, I guess, it was in a little warehouse district. You had to go behind the street, around the corner to find it. But they had everything I needed for cabling.

They had all the manufacturers. Yep. Panduit was the one that I used that nobody used.

Everybody was Keystone and the other one. But my cable vendor said, no, go get Panduit. Go to this place.

And I mean, it was a big old warehouse full of stuff.

[Cole Knuth]
Absolutely. Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah.

[Cole Knuth]
And everything from commercial to industrial to networking. Yeah. That was my past life.

And then I got into IT.

[Uncle Marv]
So then you weaseled. How did you make that transition?

[Cole Knuth]
It was pretty deliberate. I kind of hit that proverbial glass ceiling. In the electrical industry.

And so I started looking around. I had some friends and family members that were doing well in the IT space. And I was like, man, there's so much growth here.

Career opportunities are incredible. And I was like, I'm pretty young. I was like, I could go try this.

If it doesn't work out, I can go back to selling light bulbs. That's my joke, right? I was like, light bulbs aren't going anywhere.

They're just advancing technology-wise. So I was like, all right, I'm going to jump over and go do this. And if it doesn't work out, I can go back to working electrical.

And I found PAX 8. I found PAX 8. That was my first job in IT.

[Uncle Marv]
Because that's not a place you just find in the yellow pages.

[Cole Knuth]
No, especially not in 2017. In 2017, PAX 8 was small. PAX 8 had just gotten Microsoft and taken investment.

My hiring class, actually, is the group I started with in November. So, ironically, if I was still at PAX 8, it would be my 7-year anniversary this week. When I started, there was like 10 of us.

And that put us over 100 employees at PAX 8. Wow. And PAX 8 never looked back.

We grew like crazy from there.

[Uncle Marv]
That was the wingman days still, right?

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah, absolutely. Wearing jumpsuits. Unfortunately, we had the little squishy grenades.

Yeah, it was such a cool time to go there. Because everything changed right before our eyes. Our partnership with PAX 8's partnership with ConnectWise.

And the integration to solve billing problems. Man, it all just took off. And Microsoft created better programs and better structure to the way they work with the partner community.

So, yeah, that was my first job in the tech sector.

[Uncle Marv]
So, I was going to ask. Because usually people get into PAX 8, they've been in the space for a while. They've either been an MSP or an IT solution provider.

You kind of backdoored in. So, did you have any IT background before that?

[Cole Knuth]
None.

[Uncle Marv]
You didn't have an Atari, a Commodore 64? Nothing. Coleco, Nintendo?

[Cole Knuth]
Nothing that would be impressive. I was a general user of IT growing up. That was it.

You know, everyone's like, hey, it's really hard to make a leap. I mean, luckily, PAX 8 was going through an extreme growth phase. I knew how to generate revenue.

I had run successful electrical distributors. So, my job right before I came to PAX 8, I ran a $35 million electrical distributor. I had 20 employees.

I had two trucks. I had like $11 million in inventory. I was running a business.

So, I think PAX 8, Nick, who I actually see over there. I think Nick was probably like, what's the worst that could happen, right? He definitely knows how to sell something.

[Uncle Marv]
What's the worst? He could fire you?

[Cole Knuth]
He's like, we can teach him all the IT stuff. So, I was all in, man. I jumped in.

Man, what a great time.

[Uncle Marv]
So, I assume you moved into a sales manager position or did you take over a division? No, I was an account manager. Account manager, okay.

[Cole Knuth]
I started as a- So, you worked your way up. Oh, yeah. We used to be called the CSAs, Cloud Solution Advisors.

That's what I started as. Yeah, man. From then on, I was- The first couple years, I was taking on a new challenge or a new team or building a new department every six to nine months.

So, I was an account manager for about six months. We used to have like three regions. Then we went to like five because some areas are higher concentration.

Then I built the southeast region and managed the team there as sales manager. Then I became director of sales. Then I was director of revenue operations and worked closer with Nick on our investment strategy.

I've done most stuff. And then led our international expansion. So, I became vice president of international.

Moved over to England for two years. Built up the MSP community in Europe. Led Pax8 through three or four acquisitions over there.

So, I did a bunch of stuff over the seven years I was there.

[Uncle Marv]
So, that sounds like a great trajectory in Pax8. Yeah. They still have room for growth.

Absolutely. So, my question is how did FifthWall come about and what made you- Let me rephrase this properly because what made you transition?

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah. So, I moved back from Europe to work directly for Nick in a global role. Like working strategies at a global level.

John Street approached me and he's like, Hey, glad you're back. Really cool you're here. Hey, by the way, I've got a hunch about cyber insurance.

And he's like me and Klaus who's one of the other co-founders of Pax8. We've been looking at it. Let's go figure out like what's happening in the cyber insurance space.

So, I went and dug in and I was fascinated with what I was learning. Because I was like, okay, there's legitimately a wave behind this. Like there's an economic tailwind pushing the cyber insurance market.

And there's a lot of volatility, which anytime there's volatility and misunderstanding, there's room for disruption, right? Yep. There's room for someone to create clarity in chaos.

So, we were looking at it and we knew that if Pax8 did something, it had to be very methodical and it had to represent the MSP community the right way. Right? A sales initiative, discounts, like that's not, that wasn't going to solve anything.

So, we were really intentional. Ultimately, instead of Pax8 directly investing or engaging cyber insurance, we basically decided that it was best for there to be a loose partnership. Okay.

To represent the MSPs but not direct.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. That's why I said transition.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah. So, it was very cordial, right? We talked about it for a long time and it was deemed as a really good opportunity for me to go run FifthWall, build that as a partnership and connection to the Pax8 ecosystem.

Right. Right? So, we'll have some really cool stuff that we're going to do with Pax8.

Right now, FifthWall is just trying to, you know, we're trying to fix our house up a little bit more for scale, right? Like we've got to become much more efficient in the way they engage the community, the way we, you know, offer some resources. But that was just to kind of wrap up that part.

Like it was very intentional that I was, you know, that I left Pax8 and went to FifthWall.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
So, that space is kind of blown up. I'm going to say for my perspective, the last 18 months or so, we've got some other players that have come in and they're providing either more access to insurance or they're providing ways for us to help our customers get insurance ready. Yeah.

Some of them are providing cyber warranty products and stuff. So, do you have an idea of like where the space is going to be going and what it really means for us? Because we can't directly sell insurance.

[Cole Knuth]
Correct. Yeah. Well, you can, but it's, man, there's so many reasons why MSP shouldn't.

Okay. Maybe we'll touch on that. But, yeah, you have to stay away from any discussions around coverages, right?

You can talk about cyber insurance, but the moment it comes to any agreements or premiums or coverage, like MSP, you have to be careful. That's where, you know, you're definitely, and MSP's not, or anybody, you have to be licensed to go down to that final stage. So, where do I see the market going?

I think it looks like the main session might be letting out. Something's happened. Yeah.

Pretty busy. So, the one thing we recognize, and I think you asked me, like, you know, what does the space need? Like, what's the room for disruption as all these things come in?

I'm not going to try to have a premonition about that. I wish I had, you know, very, very explicit line of sight or clarity on that. But I do know that the one thing that needs to happen is the MSP needs to maintain and lead as technical advisor.

That's what the biggest epiphany I had was the insurance industry's reaction to the topic of MSPs. They were, they're like, oh, we don't work with MSPs. They're an aggregation of risk is the term they use.

And I was like, well, I mean, maybe from a technical perspective, but that would be like, that'd be like me being like, oh, well, anybody that works with, you know, a large auto mechanic franchise, I'm not going to insure their car. Like, I'm like, that's an aggregation of risk, because what if they use cheap, cheap parts, and they have a 5% more prevalence of breaking down if you get your car serviced at.

[Uncle Marv]
Right. Or unapproved aftermarket. Absolutely.

You know that sort of thing. And the auto industry, not the industry, but there was a company that got in trouble, you know, selling cyber insurance to auto shops and didn't know what they were doing.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
And I mean, I've run into that. My biggest vertical is law firms. And, you know, a lot of lawyers, you know, dismiss their cyber insurance because they think they'll litigate their way out of it.

But their insurance companies are telling them, you need to provide these products. Yeah. Some people started to provide the products.

Yeah, we'll do your EDR. Yeah. But then they didn't want to support it. I'm like, you can't provide it if you don't support it.

Right. So then it comes back to us anyway.

[Cole Knuth]
Right. Yeah. So this idea of exposure management is a reason to lean in.

And what I noticed is the insurance industry wasn't. Right. So that was one of the first things where I was like, oh, there's definitely a space here because the MSP for the SMB market, SME market, is the primary constituent of risk mitigation.

Small businesses don't have the aptitude or skill set. And they shouldn't. Right.

If they're really good at making a type of food and they run a couple of restaurants, that's what they should focus on. They shouldn't be worried about installing an endpoint product or email security or et cetera, backups. And so MSPs become the backbone of the IT infrastructure for SMB.

And so I think because of that, the insurance market, and they're slowly opening their minds about it. I mean, coalitions here, which is incredible. Right.

They're one of the largest insurer tax and cyber insurance players in space. And the fact that they're investing to come to a community like this is a sign that the tides are changing. Incredible partner of ours, by the way.

So Coalition is one of our primary products that we work with. So we're a wholesaler. Okay.

So we don't have our own insurance product. We work with 56 insurance carriers. Wholesaler or broker or is there a difference?

There is a difference. Okay. Because we work with brokers as well.

Okay. So just to plug in for a second, we can work with any client. Okay.

So an MSP has a client that has a broker. We work with them. MSP has a, and every business has a broker.

It's just whether or not they actually want to work with them. Right. So if you talk about cyber insurance and they're like, oh, I have somebody.

It's like, you can still stay involved. That's one of the things that was really important to me when we were in conversations with FifthWall. That access and the flexibility of how we work in the space will allow us to do what's right for the MSP community.

So they don't have to be like, oh, you have a broker? Sorry. No.

An MSP should be involved in that conversation whether a broker is there or not. Brokers do not understand the IT landscape. They understand coverages.

They understand claims.

[Uncle Marv]
They want to know what the risk is. And it's our job to provide them with the details of, well, here's the risk for this customer. They've got this in place, this in place, these protections.

So they're less at risk than the next one down the street.

[Cole Knuth]
Speaking of that specifically, I don't know how prevalent this is. I think this is subsiding a little bit. But the MSP community is like, well, I don't want to be exposed.

Well, if you're managing IT and you have an agreement with your customer, you already are involved whether you want to or not.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh, we're exposed.

[Cole Knuth]
Period.

[Uncle Marv]
Because if they find something, they're going to point to us regardless.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah. So drive the conversation, right? Yeah.

Look, in a perfect world in the next five years, cyber insurance should become a carrot for the MSP. Right? One of the biggest issues with MSPs and their clients is trying to get them to buy next generation technology and adoption.

And that's still going to be a challenge. But insurance is different. Small business owners understand financial risk.

They understand. It's very real for them to be able to say, look, what would you do if you lost five days of revenue? A small business owner knows exactly what that would do to their business.

[Uncle Marv]
Some of them can't lose one day. Exactly.

[Cole Knuth]
It's shocking how many. That's the conversation that starts. That is one very real example of an association small business owners make to understand what cyber insurance does to them.

Once that conversation starts, the ability to say, look, you can buy a better insurance product or maybe a cheaper insurance product if you have these products. Right. It's a different conversation, right?

Going to a business owner and being like, hey, I really want you to use CrowdStrike, but it's going to be a $5 extra per user. I thought I already had protection there. And it's like, no, no, but this one's better.

If I run a construction company, that is one of a million things I'm worried about. And if I already have something, you're trying to convince me I need something else. The chances of that landing on that day when me as the MSP is talking to my client, it's hit or miss.

Right. Like you said, legal, right? Same thing.

Like law firms are like, they're like thinking about a hundred things. A lot of times the owner of a law firm is still managing clients.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh, yeah, it is.

[Cole Knuth]
So you're like, I want you to buy these more products. They're like, what? Just keep my crap safe and charge me the same amount.

Leave me alone.

[Uncle Marv]
My last conversation was with one of their insurance defense providers. So their clients are insurance companies. And those insurance companies put out these security requirement documents.

And one of the provisions, you know, we reserve the right to audit. Well, as far as I know, they've never been audited. So what happens is my last meeting, the customer, I said, do you have any new security requirements?

They said, yeah, but they're a small carrier. If we lose them, no big deal. I'm like, okay, that's not really the point.

The point is, if you get hit with something because we didn't do it, other providers are going to then be able to find out. And you might lose a bigger client. So I'm like, it doesn't matter how small the client is.

[Cole Knuth]
You would never find a law firm that wouldn't have some type of liability coverage on their recommendation, their services. There's no way. Because their liability in litigation is too big.

But the problem is, honestly, there's a lot of the market that's still not insured. And when I talk to business owners, not MSPs, I talk to a business owner, and they're like, what's cyber insurance? They're like, because I don't have a lot of customer data.

That's what a lot of them think. They think it is all about exposure of customer data. I'm like, no, what if someone locked down your line of business application?

What if you couldn't access invoices for six months? What if someone intercepted a wire for your largest client? We see that happen all the time.

And they're like, wait a second, is that what cyber insurance is for? Yeah. Legitimately, the biggest things MSPs should do today is just ask their client about cyber insurance.

Because they don't even understand what it is. They don't even, they're like, oh, I'm a restaurant. My customer data is limited.

It doesn't matter.

[Uncle Marv]
Or it's handled by my POS system.

[Cole Knuth]
They take care of all that. They take care of all that. And it's like, okay, look, that's not where it starts or stops.

Right? And so a restaurant, well, it's legal not to have general liability. But they understand why they have that to cover them.

Right? They cover in case of a loss. If my restaurant burns down, my insurance company will help me with losses.

It's the same thing in the digital world. Cyber insurance covers any digital crime. Right?

Most digital crimes. And so that's where the conversation needs to start. And if MSP's not having the conversation, someone else is.

It's the broker. And you don't want to lose your position as the technical advisor. That's what it comes to.

[Uncle Marv]
So I did have that conversation. So one of my clients rents out space to a cafe.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
That they wanted to connect to the network.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
And I said, okay, well, we've got to talk about all the things you're doing on the network. Right. And one of the things that they wanted to do was have, you know, iPad access.

And people can order on their phones and stuff. And I said, well, we've got to lock that down.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
And they're like, what are you talking about? I said, if you're on the Wi-Fi and we're connected. Yeah.

What if somebody has a Wi-Fi scanner and, you know, intercepts.

[Cole Knuth]
Absolutely.

[Uncle Marv]
You know, a transaction.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
Well, our PSO company covers that. I said, the customer's not going to care. They're going to come after you.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
And then you're going to come after my client.

[Cole Knuth]
Reputation, right? Yeah. One of the things that surprised me when I got in the insurance world is that part of the coverage you get with a lot of insurance carriers is PR and reputation.

They will pay to make sure that you're communicating effectively. So their firm's a part of an instant response to help with. I was like, it makes sense.

It makes sense. Like, an MSP should have that. End clients should have that.

Right? Like, you know, how are we going to communicate this? What happens next?

You know, what do we need to tell people? Yeah. And it's like, because it's, like you said, the customer didn't care.

The person who spent the money, at the end of the day, is like, I don't care what the reason is.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. You were your responsibility. You were the ones.

I was paying you. It's your fault. Blah, blah, blah.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
Wow. That's a discussion. I know we're having it.

Yeah. But we need to have it more.

[Cole Knuth]
Look, and it's a different way to approach, right? Like, look, I've never been an MSP. I've been around the MSP community for seven years, right?

I have a ton of experience in the space. But like, as an MSP trying to go to a client and be like, hey, I want you to buy this new thing or I want to expand your services. Clients are just like, what?

Why? Like, just keep help. Just do what you were doing before, right?

Like, that's probably their thought process. Insurance is a different topic.

[Uncle Marv]
Insurance is a different topic. Well, there's two parts to that. One is we can't keep doing things that we did before because the bad actors, those people overseas, however they view it, because that's how they think.

It's, oh, well, China's hacking us. No, it's the kid down the street.

[Cole Knuth]
Regardless, if they take $10,000 from you, it's $10,000. Right. It doesn't matter who it is, right?

[Uncle Marv]
And most likely you're not getting it back. You're not.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah. I mean, look, there's companies getting better at recovering and banks are doing a better job, but you can't bank on that. No pun intended.

You can't just lean on it and be like, oh, well, they'll take care of me. It's their responsibility. No.

Insurance companies are the ones who are motivated to recover the money. They are legally obligated to pay out. As long as you're truthful and you haven't manipulated or changed what you said, right?

[Uncle Marv]
Right.

[Cole Knuth]
Imagine you get general liability and then you uninstall the lock on your door. Well, the insurance company's not going to cover theft, right? You took the lock off your store.

No wonder the 7-Eleven got robbed, right? Okay. So assuming you leave the lock on, everything stays the same.

Insurance companies are required to pay out. They're motivated to help you recover. That's why the one thing the insurance community has done is instant response plans.

Having groups and people, and the MSP needs to be at the middle of this, having groups and organizations that help win a lot of things, right? Help recover.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. Having all that stuff in place, the plan, the systems. And I had another discussion with a customer where I was providing them secure remote access.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
And they're like, we don't need that. I'm like, yes, you do. Yeah, absolutely.

And I used the example. They thought, well, nobody knows our IP address. That's not the point.

Does anybody know your home address? Yeah. I'm like, a thief going down the street doesn't care what the number is.

They're just going to check and see if your door's open, your window's open, if anybody's home, and if you have an alarm.

[Cole Knuth]
Right.

[Uncle Marv]
If you're in a gated community, all that stuff. Right. That's where they're like, oh, is it really that bad?

I'm like, read the emails I send you. All right. Well, Cole, it's been a good conversation.

I think you were here longer than you thought.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah. No, I love it. I could talk about this all day.

It's great. And I love the podcast setup.

[Uncle Marv]
It's awesome. Well, I have to thank ConnectWise and Sean Lardo from PitchIT for getting us Media Row here. This is great.

Nice turnout as well. I don't know if I like the breakfast right across from me. Right.

[Cole Knuth]
I see some banana bread over there.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. We have to go do that. Well, Cole Knuth, FifthWall, we're going to have to chat some more.

I'd love to. I mean, stuff's going to be evolving.

[Cole Knuth]
Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
And I know that there's stuff coming down in 2025 that will aid us in going to our customers and helping them with that. So we'll look forward to talking to you some more.

[Cole Knuth]
Absolutely.

[Uncle Marv]
Thank you. Thank you, sir. All right, folks, that's going to do it.

And I'll leave the webcam up so you can enjoy what is happening here at IT Nation Connect. And we'll be back. And we'll see you soon.

Holla!