How Much Is Your MSP Really Worth? (EP814)

[Uncle Marv]
Hello friends, Uncle Marv here with another episode of the IT Business Podcast, the show for MSPs and IT professionals, where we try to help you run your business better, smarter and faster. So today, folks, we are going to be diving into an area that you never really hear me talk much about. We are just coming off of March, our Marketing and Money Month, and you know that I am no marketing Marv.

And then of course, the next step in that is always to be looking at the end. What are you going to do when it's time to exit the business, whether you exit by choice or by not? We all want to make sure that the business is taken care of or we get paid handsomely for it.

So we're going to be talking a little bit of M&A and we're going to be talking about basically how you should be looking at your business throughout the process. You probably want to start doing this much earlier than I did and taking care of where your business is, how it's evaluated, what's its real value. And to help me do that, Paul Daigle is going to be joining me.

And I spotted Paul or he spotted me, I think it was February at the IT Expo. Is that sound about right, Paul?

[Paul Daigle]
We talked a little bit before then, but that's when we got eyeball to eyeball.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. Yeah. Talking over the Internet and the emails, no big deal.

You actually saw me face to face and, you know, that's a whole different story.

[Paul Daigle]
I saw your work. I go, oh man, there you go. I need that job.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah, that's not true. So Paul, you have been in this industry for a while. You've got 30 years of experience behind you and you've been doing this M&A game for a while.

You've actually coached a lot of MSPs along the way. Tell me about how it's been.

[Paul Daigle]
No, well, it's been challenging the past few weeks. We actually, you know, MSPs aren't worth as much as they were even the latter part of last year. It's, you know, it's a real challenge for MSPs, especially those MSPs that need to spend 15 to 20 percent of their revenue.

Well, their revenues are 15 to 20 percent in their hardware related. And you know, when CDW is giving you a call, go that order you put in four weeks ago. Still hasn't arrived.

But when it does, we got an extra surtax or tariff we need to pay. And we got to try to pass on that 15 percent or that 30 percent or that 125 percent to our clients. And there's a lot of uproar on that.

And it's just, you know, everybody's getting smarter. The smaller MSPs are really going to have a hard road to go. You know, you can't you won't be able to be a small MSP that's providing cybersecurity stuff to any of your customers if you're less than half a million dollars.

[Uncle Marv]
You just can't survive. Thanks for pooh-poohing on my business there.

[Paul Daigle]
Was it? I'm sorry.

[Uncle Marv]
Now, let's. So I just had a show last week with Jay McBain, and we talked a little bit about the tariffs and my heroes and the effect on the industry. And of course, I had my own situation last week where I did place an order that said it was in stock.

And then a few days later to find out it hasn't shipped yet. So I had to, you know, punt and go a different direction. But I have those machines that actually got delivered today.

So I'm happy to go. My clients happy we're on. But you made the comment about MSPs not being worth what they used to be.

So a lot of what I think is that we went through a little bit of an upswing in a bubble where, you know, private equity money was rushing into our channel and in a sense, in my opinion, overpaying a lot of times we had this big pushed, you know, 5x, 10x your business and, you know, private equity was eating that up.

[Paul Daigle]
Well, private equity, especially when they focus on MSP or the reoccurring revenue model, whether it be an MSP or UCAAS  or voice over IP, the EBITDA, you know, the money's left over at the end of the year that are just profit are huge, you know, anywhere from they average at about, you know, 30 percent. And I've seen them go up to 50 percent over the past two years. And where these private equity guys will pay a multiple based upon what your EBITDA based upon the profit at the end of the year.

And so that goes really well. That's why those evaluations, because the recurring revenue model like we are all in is we make more money in our industry than a plumber does a plumbing organization. HVAC.

There's a lot of other industries that you don't make as much money by the end of the year that you do in the MSP space when you run effectively in right in all the eight key operational focus areas. They are that you need to really worry on.

[Uncle Marv]
Now, I mean, that's fair. And I think for the MSPs that are run properly, that makes a whole lot of sense. There's a lot of people in our space that aren't doing that.

They they're not making a quote unquote profit at the end of the year. They've got good revenue, but they either are not paying attention to their expenses or they've not priced themselves properly. So I imagine that a lot of what you end up doing is when you're looking at, you know, somebody who wants to buy an MSP and that MSP all of a sudden doesn't look as good as they thought they did.

How do you jump in at that point?

[Paul Daigle]
Well, a lot of times those MSPs think there's tools out there and we just happen to have one that will take a look at their eight key operational focuses. And the operational focuses are marketing, sales training, legal, CPA, employee training, coaching, industry standards and delivery and HR. And that's where anybody and everybody takes a look at a company when they're looking to buy them.

They have to have all those eight operational focuses in a concentration of their efforts spent in each one of those operational areas in order to grow and scale the companies. Like if they just focus on sales and marketing and they drop the legal CPA training, coaching, they're not going to succeed. And the thing is, it's a balance of what you need to do.

And there's tools out there that will identify the MSP on where you are along the MSP business maturity model and identify exactly how much of your money or your time and resources you need to spend in these eight operational focuses in order to accelerate and grow your company. Like you're saying, Marvin, if you just don't do one or two of those, you're not going to grow. You don't do three or four and you're not going to grow.

And it's just where you spend your time. A lot of IT guys on the small side, they're working in the business, not necessarily on the business. And it's not until they get to $600,000, $1 million before they start hiring additional help on the executive side so they can start running and working on the business rather than in the business.

[Uncle Marv]
So you mentioned the eight areas there. Let's take a quick step back and talk about the business evaluator and accelerator. Even though there's those eight areas, you mentioned that you've got a tool and that tool, basically four questions.

[Paul Daigle]
Yeah, we asked four questions. Basically, it's a business evaluator. I'm going to start with first.

An accelerator is a different module that you buy. But the evaluator, you answer four questions. How many years you've been in business?

What's your current revenue? The number of employees that you have and then the average wage per employee. And throughout all that, we identify where you are along the MSP business maturity model.

And we tell you right off the bat how much you're worth, what your multiple is of your revenue and your EBITDA. Either way you want to go, depending who you're talking to, to sell your business or you want to evaluate your business for taxes or to find out what your net worth is, or you want to give it to your family, to kids, type of stuff that you started mentioning when we started off this conversation. Everybody should know how much your house is worth.

Everybody should know how much your business is worth because without the business, you don't have the house and you kind of want to measure that. And so the nice thing about it is we say that you're in a particular peer group and then we go, once you make a little bit more money, once you make another $500,000 more, you're up to the next peer group and your multiples increase and your revenue per employee increases and just a whole bunch of stuff that you're making more money as you accelerate through the maturity model. We also identify how long, how many years you should actually spend within that particular group, within that particular peer group that you are.

So let's take, for instance, say you're doing $5,000,000. I have it pulled up right now. So you're doing $5,000,000 in revenue.

You know, you're in peer group, $6,000,000, but once you get up to the next peer group, we call it $12,000,000, you're going to be worth half a point more, which could be a few million dollars more money. We tell you that in the sixth group, when you're doing $5,000,000, they should be there from your year 13, no, from year 11 to year 13. We give you all this information.

We tell you exactly how much you should be spending in each one of these eight key areas of operational focus or operational excellence. And we do this by evaluating over 500 resources on a monthly basis to see what the money people are doing and see what the MSPs are doing. And then we take the best of both worlds, and we combine that information.

You know, you can go spend $4,000, $5,000, $6,000 for an organization to tell you how much you're worth, or you can spend less than $100, and I'll give your listeners a code that they can spend less than $100 to find out how much your business is worth. And then on the acceleration side is when we give you the blueprint and roadmap on what to do.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay.

[Paul Daigle]
How to do it. And we hope you set your strategy.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. Let me ask you a quick question, because we talked about having these numbers compared to your peers, and my question is, how universal are these numbers? Because I think that sometimes when, you know, businesses come up and, you know, when it comes to either pricing or value, a lot of times we'll look at different parts of the country, different types of geographic areas, whether you're in a big city, small city, rural, a lot of times, you know, business is like, look, I can't be like that business because we're so different.

So with those items that you mentioned, how universal are those numbers?

[Paul Daigle]
They're, it's an average and they're very universal. I think something that makes an MSP different from another is that, you know, I've come across an MSP that does $800,000 of revenue, and they only have two employees. Numbers are off the roof, you know, how they do it and how they're doing it.

And then you got the $800,000 MSP that's got eight or nine employees. And you go, okay, how are you making enough money to pay those eight or nine people? And so there's something that makes them all a little bit different.

But this is a standard based upon the peers that have been there over the past 10 years and what they've done, how much time they spent in marketing, what they have for services and delivery, what they do with their service level packages or policies and procedures. And most important now that's making a big thing is AI and how AI is affecting the profitability of an MSP and an MSP to put in proper AI, depending on their size.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. So the evaluator is the first part, and that sounds simple enough. But then you talk about the accelerator.

So what is the next step?

[Paul Daigle]
Well, the accelerator will actually, you can baseline. You can level up your MSP based upon your peers. And then you go take a look at the previous peer group that you were in previously and make sure you didn't leave anything behind on what you didn't do.

And then what I call that as a level up stage. Once you're leveled up, you're cruising. You're spending roughly the budget that's in the accelerator.

You're spending that budget on the legal, on the CPA, on the coaching, on the sales training, industry standards and deliveries, that the industry standards and deliveries include the PSA, the RMM, the cybersecurity tools and stuff. And we break those all out individually and what you should be spending and the types of tools that you should be looking at. We don't identify specific tools because that's really up to the MSP and what they want to do.

But we give them an idea what they should be looking for specifically based upon their peers and where their peers are within that particular peer group that they currently reside in along the MSP business maturity model from zero to $100 million.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. Am I to understand that there's actually three different groups within that accelerator program?

[Paul Daigle]
No, there's, and I might have made it confusing. The evaluator will tell you how much your business is worth. And the accelerator will actually give you a blueprint and roadmap to take what you're worth and accelerate the growth through the MSP business maturity model.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. So there isn't like a program based on where you are at that level. For instance, the person that comes to you that is in that less than $1 million is going to be different than somebody that comes in at $10 million or $50 million, right?

[Paul Daigle]
Oh, very much so. And the budgets are different for that. Like our tool is from zero to $100,000, then from $100,000 to $200,000, because these are the critical steps, building steps.

And we figured we needed to really focus on those MSPs within those ranges. And then we go from $200,000 to $600,000, then $600,000 to $1 million. And then we go up, then we have another five or six bringing us up to $100 million.

But in those crucial stages of under $3 million, there's a lot of differences between these MSPs. And a lot of times they don't know where they are, or they go into different peer groups with different associations. And you got someone that's generating $100,000 of revenue, along with someone that's generating $600,000 of revenue.

The worries in the CEO are losing sleep for two different reasons. It doesn't match. Under $100,000, they might have one helper.

At $600,000, they might have about three, four helpers that help them do the work and then help them strategize to move forward.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. Paul, let me take a step back here. We're going to go out of order.

But I want to go back and ask, what got you into looking at this? Is this where you started, or is this where you ended up?

[Paul Daigle]
No, I owned an MSP for about 25 years. And as I was doing that MSP, I acquired and I divested parts of the acquisition that I didn't want. Like, I wanted the recurring revenue clients, but I didn't want the web development clients.

And so I divested that part to someone that just did web development. And so as I went along, I found some white space, some need of our clients. And so we created our own voice over IP, our own backup disaster recovery, our own phone systems, and a few other software packages that we rolled out to the MSP market.

We sold. And so I got to a point in my life, I want to simplify my life. And I go, well, I'm going to sell.

I don't want to be an operational anymore, operation anymore. Let me just continue my board roles. You know, I was a public official.

I was on huge bank boards of a billion dollar bank boards and doing a little bit of nonprofit, did some philanthropy called the US Technology Fund, where we helped level up nonprofits. You know, when nonprofits would back up their data, it'd be on the oldest computer and hold this hard drive on the network or might be backing up on the tapes. And that alone was prone to disaster.

You know, they never had roadmaps and everything else necessary on the technology side. You know, when you're doing a nonprofit, a lot of stuff comes from the heart and it doesn't come from a lot of business. Well, some business, but very, very little technology.

We put in the technology and the roadmaps for that. And so, you know, I stepped back a little bit from operational. And then I got I was doing a lot of transform of transform businesses that weren't making money, whether private equity would send me into an organization and identify where why they're not getting the rate of return on it.

I went to a UCAAS  company, the largest NEC phone systems dealer that, you know, they would sell you a phone system to go into the closet. And then, you know, and as those contracts were coming up, the service contracts are coming up on the traditional side, that those customers are asking, no, we want to get onto the cloud. And so basically, for every 10 customers they took from the from the telephone system in the cloud to go, no telephone system in the closet to go to the cloud, they lose nine of them because they did not know quality of service.

SD-WAN, all that other kind of stuff that we know on the MSP side, on the quality of service you need to keep with the carriers in order to be able to do business. So I took that company, I turned them around. They did increase their revenue by 130 million dollars, I think, in 13 months and made it so now when they did voice over IP integration, they didn't lose a client.

And so, you know, it did a lot of good there, but it also started up a few MSPs, helped coach on starting up MSPs, building MSPs. Today, I'm on many private equity boards, on many boards that I help guide and advise on roll ups, buying MSPs and also selling MSPs. You know, we got a lot of MSPs that want to sell, that are looking for buyers.

And the way we started off this conversation to go, OK, let's level up your MSP. Let's do some preliminary, some initial due diligence before we put up the MSP for sale, because once the MSP is up for sale, then you're just working with the people looking to buy it. But the easier you're making on those people looking to buy your MSP and you got all your ducks in a row, the more money you're worth paying right off the bat.

[Uncle Marv]
Right. Now, with the creation of the Biz Advisory Board, was this something that came about because people were noticing you and how you were helping others? And did they come to you?

Or did you actually start to see what was happening out in the industry? And specifically with MSPs, I imagine there were a lot of common mistakes that MSPs made. So did you see an opportunity there?

Or did people really keep coming to you?

[Paul Daigle]
Yeah, people kept on coming. I go, this is a good way to share my information. And initially, we started off as partner in VoIP, where we worked with a few large VoIP providers and MSPs would come to me and they go, OK, we want to add VoIP, but we only want to do the install.

We don't want to do the billing. We don't want to do the compliance. We don't want to do all those other things, maintain the circuits and stuff.

I go, well, if you do that, you're only going to make 15% on you. You're only going to make 15%. I go, why don't you adopt, why don't you put together a few people on your service desk that know Voice over IP that be able to do the trouble tickets.

Then you'll be able to maybe get 30%. And then let's get your billing guys to do the billing for that and the compliance guys to do the billing for that and work yourself up to 70, 80% residual commissions. Because ideally, that's where you are.

You are a service organization. And ideally, you want to keep that customer under your umbrella and not send that customer to competition that might hurt you. I might go, hey, no, it's a data problem.

It's not a Voice over IP problem. Well, they're calling one desk and one neck to choke. And that goes very, very well.

But it takes more of a mature MSP in order to do that. And then the profits are as good or close to as good as they are in the MSP side. So now, the profits on the Voice should be about 80%.

And the profits, that's a gross on the MSP should be also about 80%. So now you're taking both businesses with the same customers. And you know better than I that once an MSP has a customer, they need to keep them because they suck at getting new ones.

Because it's not their jam. That's why they're hiring these sales guys that fail from time to time. And then they're hiring these marketing organizations that do a great job, bring them a lot of opportunity, but they can't close them.

That's why one of the eight key areas of operational focus is sales training. And it might be sales training. Most of the time, it's best on a small MSP to sales train the owner.

Right. Because no one's going to be more compassionate on what they do than the owner. It's getting the owner to listen to what the customer wants and then delivering on what the customer wants rather than the owner, rather than telling the business, this is what you need.

You need cybersecurity. You need this. You need that.

It has to come out of the customer's mouth on what they want. Okay, Mr. Customer, I'm an MSP. I can help you.

I can help you fix the four things that you told me that you wanted to fix. You want to sleep better at night tonight? You want to do it in a week or in a month?

[Uncle Marv]
All right. So you mentioned the whole percentage thing of a lot of technicians turned business owner that are happy to get that 10 to 15% commission if they resell something else. And they're happy with that because they're like, well, I don't have to deal with it.

I'll just take what I can get. You've identified that as a mistake as- No, no, no.

[Paul Daigle]
No? Okay. I think that when you're a smaller MSP and you don't have the capacity, you're under $300,000 in revenue.

You don't have any extra capacity. And to get your feet wet, you tell your customer, go, hey, I want to sell you these other services, the Microsoft backup, or you want to sell the voice over IP services, which are very profitable. You don't have the time or the money to put the expertise in that effort into that.

So it makes sense to sign up with a company like RingCentral or Vonage and get something for that customer because now your competition's doing it if you're not doing it.

[Uncle Marv]
Right. Okay. But yeah, I was going to say in the beginning, that makes sense.

I mean, that's what you're- It makes sense. But as an MSP matures and as you're looking to move up that scale that you were talking about, getting that margin is a whole different ball game when you get to a certain level, right?

[Paul Daigle]
Yeah, well, the thing is, it's typically going to stay at that margin until you get to about a half a million dollars. But a half a million dollars, you might have 100 clients that you're doing voice over IP for. And so now you take a look at that revenue that the 100 clients are generating and going rather than having it go to RingCentral and me only get 20%.

I already have the clients. They already know me. They already trust me.

Let me build out the infrastructure. And now I have 100 clients on that brand new infrastructure that I put in. And that's a jolt of additional revenue profits that's coming into you.

One thing, Marvin, real quick. One thing that a lot of MSPs leave on the market is a carrier side. The AT&T, the bandwidth side, they leave that on the table and they should not because they can hand that over to somebody and they can make 15% on that.

And so those are the cookie crumbs. So you don't necessarily go after initially because you want to make 80% margin on everything that you're trying to do. But that extra stuff just comes in.

And if you have 100 clients and they're each paying $100 a month for their bandwidth, depending on how big they are, I'm getting some money out of that. It doesn't hurt. It's mailbox money.

[Uncle Marv]
That's true. But if you get to the point where a lot of our customers are smarter and if they're looking to save $1 here and $5 there and they're going out and shopping us, that's where it gets critical because we may not have a lot of room on that 15% or we'll take it down to 10 to keep the customer. But at some point, that's got to switch.

[Paul Daigle]
If they're shopping us for our MSP services, if our customer's shopping us for MSP service, we're doing something wrong. We're not doing our quarterly reviews or our monthly reviews. We've lost trust in them.

We need to find out why and take care of that. Now, when it comes to carrier, when it comes to internet service and everything else, Marvin, from month to month, year to year, you always get more bandwidth for less money. And if you want to spend the time with your clients and help them reduce their bill for their bandwidth or their self-services or anything else they use for communications or their server services, you always get more for less from year to year to year.

You don't do it one year after another. You might wait two years between you do it so there's enough of a cost difference to make it worthwhile for the business owner to go through the trouble of doing it.

[Uncle Marv]
Well, that's where vendor management comes in as part of our portfolio where we know all of the contracts that are out there. We know what our clients are spending their money on tech-wise and we get ahead of that so that before that contract renewal is up, we're the ones talking to them about, hey, we can probably save you money the next time around.

[Paul Daigle]
Yeah, yeah, definitely on the carrier side. You're not going to switch a carrier to save... You're not going to change a $100 carrier to save $10, but you might want to change a $100 carrier if you're saving $40 or $50.

That's just a byproduct, but that's all part of taking care of the customer, Marv. Like you said, even though you're not making a lot of money on it, but if they have a problem with that, it totally affects the products and the service quality of what we're delivering as MSPs.

[Uncle Marv]
All right, so Paul, I think we just did what a lot of MSPs do where we kind of get stuck in the weeds instead of looking at the overall view of the MSP as a whole and trying to get a complete value-based assessment here. So we've talked about the accelerator. We've talked about the...

Well, we talked about the evaluator first. Evaluator, then the accelerator. Then the accelerator.

And in terms of... You know, we've talked about it only from the MSP perspective. You've talked about it, you know, also in the VoIP sector, the telecom sector and stuff.

Who else uses your evaluator and accelerator?

[Paul Daigle]
Anybody that's providing an MSP capital in any particular way.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay, so private equity folks.

[Paul Daigle]
Or they go to the bank and they need to add another data center, or they need money for equipment, or they need money for marketing. And anybody will give money to an MSP for marketing if they're adding fuel to the fire. They don't want to build the fire.

They want to add fuel to the fire. And so, you know, whether it's capital, whether it's, you know, a loan from a bank, a loan from a friend, a loan from a non-friend. They want to figure out, you know, are you operating within the parameters of your peers?

And if you're not, why? And it could be good reasons either way. Are you outperforming your peers on numbers and on service?

Everybody's going to say, yes, on service. Not so much on money, but the private equity. You know, private equity.

You know, and I've done lots of these where private equity might have already combined eight businesses and they might be doing $40 million in revenue. And then they go, okay, now we want to buy another business and going, okay, they take a look at, you know, the MSP and what industry they serve. And if you're a generalist, if you're an MSP under a half million dollars, you're a generalist and you're a regional.

Once you get up over 500, you're more, you tend to be more going down one focus of an industry. Whether it be accounting, whether it be dentistry, whether it be some sort of doctor or, you know, stuff like that. And they know that software real well.

And ideally having an industry focus brings you from being regional to bringing national. And that's where you really see your multiples and your values go up. Very rarely do we get asked to go find an MSP or do we have an MSP for sale?

That's in Cleveland. And we just need people to turn a screwdriver in Cleveland. And if we can grab their clients, great, we'll do it.

More so you find these roll ups that, okay, yeah, they already have an industry focus or five or six industry focuses. Now, you know, if that MSP has no service now and they focus on that industry, you know, I want the customers and I want their people. And then, you know, the valuation's just a little bit different.

But it's the more specialized you are and we see that above 250, maybe 300K, that they really specialized where their clients are calling them rather than their industry software that they bought, that they have a service contract on. Because all they have to do is buy, is call that one MSP. It's one neck to choke.

They're able to, you know, am I having computer problems? Am I having software problems? Am I having communication problems?

You got one place that will help answer all those questions. And, you know, these are the people that own these organizations. They just want the stuff to work.

You know, they don't want to be aware that something's not working. Because Marvin, say you jump in your car today and your car worked fine today, but tomorrow you get in it and it doesn't work fine. How does it make you feel?

[Uncle Marv]
You don't want, I can't say those words on air.

[Paul Daigle]
There you go. And then say it happens two more times over the next week. What are you going to do with that car?

Or what are you going to do with that MSP?

[Uncle Marv]
You got to trade that bad boy in. Yep, that mechanic is no bueno.

[Paul Daigle]
No, and when you got these different providers, if you're small MSP and you're sending all your voiceover IP customers to Vonage, Vonage is going to point their finger at you and you're going to point it at Vonage. So the sooner and the better you can grow based upon learning from your peers that were there before you, the better you're going to be. And you're going to be able to accelerate your growth through the MSP business maturity model.

Therefore the business evaluator and accelerator will help you do that. You can do it on your own or you can get it coach led if you wish. But you have everything you need to do it on your own.

[Uncle Marv]
All right, well, there you have it, folks. The evaluator, you can get insights and recommendations, determine your need to accelerate the value of your business. Paul Dago with the Biz Advisory Board.

So Paul, for a listener today that has just heard us go round and round here, what is the one thing we can leave them with as to what they can do?

[Paul Daigle]
They can go to our website, Biz Advisory Board, navigate to our store for the MSP business evaluator, and you can get 76% off just the valuation portion. That'll tell you how much your business is worth by using the code Marvin76. The accelerator versions all come with the seven reports and the financial reports and everything you need.

We're giving away 15%. And that's Marvin15. And so you can get the valuation for less than $100.

I think right now it's only $70. And that's very inexpensive when you get an evaluation from someone else and it can cost you thousands of dollars. But for now, for listening to Marvin and in this podcast, it's 76% off and it's about $70.

And then 15% off the accelerator versions, it takes off quite a few hundred dollars off those.

[Uncle Marv]
All right, well, we will have links to those. I wasn't expecting this, so I'm writing this down as we speak. So I'll send you an email with it.

Marvin76 and Marvin15 for percentage off these programs. So thank you very much, Paul. You're welcome, Marvin.

All right, so there you have it, folks. The Biz Advisory Board and Paul Dago, the MSP Business Evaluator and Accelerator. So you should always know the value of our business, just like we know the value of our home.

I think that's going to be the quote we throw on the page there somewhere.

[Paul Daigle]
Marvin, it sounds like you're out of breath. You know, I did the one that did all the talking. You ask questions and you're out of breath.

[Uncle Marv]
Well, I'm trying to write and read and listen and time and I'm just poking the bear.

[Paul Daigle]
That's all.

[Uncle Marv]
So, Paul, thank you for coming and hanging out with us. It was good to see you out at the Expo. I'm sure we'll see you out and about again, but we'll talk soon.

All right. OK, thank you, Marvin. All right.

That's it folks. Thank you very much for tuning in and be sure to check out the show notes for those links that Paul said and use the codes to get discounts on the Accelerator and the Evaluator and know your business and go out there and get what it's worth. We'll be back with more from the IT Business Podcast.

We'll see you out there. And until then, holla!