Scaling with Remote Teams (EP 806)

[Uncle Marv]
Hello friends, Uncle Marv here with another episode of the IT Business Podcast, the show for managed service providers, IT professionals, heck, even if you're a tech, just a regular old system administrator, desktop technician, and you want to learn how to support your clients better, smarter and faster, this is the show for you. So we are back with part two of my discussion with David Stinner from US itek, a managed service provider up in the Buffalo, New York area, ASCII member as well. We did not get into that before, David, but let me start by saying welcome back to the show.

[David Stinner]
Thanks for having me back.

[Uncle Marv]
And we had just heard about your early days, which sounds like so many of our early days where we all kind of built PCs, did repair and worked at a shop and decided at some point in time, you know what, we can do it better. And here we are, these many years later.

[David Stinner]
Back to my old story about that big PC manufacturer, I went to the auction when they closed down finally, I think it was 2005. And I bought my old boss's desk and his Herman Miller chair that he really loved. Wow.

Yes.

[Uncle Marv]
Now, have you seen the boss since then?

[David Stinner]
No, after I left and when I started competing against him, there was a school bid that I won a few months after leaving. And I just knew the industry pricing, as I was describing, I knew how to do all the purchasing, right? So I just took whatever my numbers, this is what it costs to build 100 computers.

I'm going to mark it up, I don't know, very little to try to win it, you know, 50 bucks a computer or something back then. And I won the school district bid. So then he sued me.

And that was a big, ugly matter. So that's kind of why it was it was fun to buy his desk at the at the auction. He sued me for competing and he said that I stole his customer lists and all that kind of stuff.

But I just kind of knew the industry very well. And like I was responding to a back then you would look in newspaper for the legal notices. And like municipalities and school districts would put a legal notice.

There's an RFP respond to the RFP, right? That's where I got a lot of my business back then. So I did and I won business and he didn't like that.

And he ended up suing me and he thought that the legal costs would put me out of business. So I remember it cost me about 100 grand my first three years in business. Depositions and ultimately the lawyer said, you know, you've got to settle this and pay him.

I remember like learning the legal system. What do you mean I got to pay him? I didn't do anything wrong.

He's like, well, he's going to bleed you to death. Or you can just settle and make a monthly payment to him. So that was actually my first MRR.

I paid my former my former employer. Wow. And.

Yeah, he lasted until a few months after I had to write that last monthly check for that settlement, I was going to say, probably living off your money. No, it wasn't a lot of money. I think it was I mean, back then it was to me it was a crazy amount of money.

I think it was fifty thousand dollars. I agreed to pay him over three or four years. Oh, but, you know, I was just a kid back then.

I was twenty two, twenty five years old.

[Uncle Marv]
And I remember when I got money. Yeah, that's a lot of money. I remember when I broke out on my own and my boss at the time said, you know, you won't make it a year.

And I'm like, OK, I've just got to last one year, please.

[David Stinner]
Exactly. You know, you had that feeling, right? Like that, that lawsuit drove me more than anything to win and to persevere.

Yeah. So, you know, when I think about that in hindsight, like when I deal with. Difficult things today, it's always, well, is this a bad thing?

I don't know, maybe, but I know that I don't know today whether it's a good or a bad thing, but I don't know in the future.

[Uncle Marv]
Well, speaking of how things are today versus back then, so you're fully into managed services now. And let's kind of give the listeners an idea of what manages managed services means to you, because we're all doing it different, even though we're all kind of doing the same. But in terms of like your services that you're providing, are they all the standard services, remote support, cybersecurity, yada, yada, yada?

[David Stinner]
Yeah, I think I think it's pretty standard, although it's probably different compared to some people. So I charge a flat rate user price. So that's different than still a lot of people out there.

I don't like the device and all that stuff. I did that early on. But when customers started virtualizing, I realized that server reduction meant less money for me.

So I've been charging per user for well over 10 years. And what we deliver with that is we deliver our centralized services, which is all the patch management and antivirus and backup services, the BDR services, automation, those kind of things. And then, of course, we deliver our help desk.

And we'll probably have to dive into that because I did some unique things with my help desk right after the pandemic. And then I deliver consulting, which is typically what people call VCIO. We call our guy the VCIO to go in and do the quarterly review.

And part of that consulting is design desk. So that's really architecting anything. But then the moment you say go.

That's project work and project work is outside of the scope of managed services. But once it's installed, it gets supported under managed services. OK, interesting.

So that's really how we lay it out.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. So you when you say flat rate, let's talk about pricing for just a second. Because that sounds like an all you can eat model.

[David Stinner]
Oh, I don't like the word all you can eat.

[Uncle Marv]
I know, but that's the phrase most people understand and assume flat rate means all you can eat. And it doesn't mean that in my case. But what does that mean in yours?

[David Stinner]
Yeah, it doesn't mean that in my case either. And I should say that we do have a few different cybersecurity plans that are above and on top of our managed services. OK, so we have some basic things in there in our managed service offering, of course, you know, like Windows Defender antivirus that's been in there forever or whatever versions we had before that web root or whatever.

But if you need your managed detection and response, your sim and those compliance level things, we have different packages for that that we sell on top of managed services. So what does it mean to me? I mean, the support of anything in our customers network.

That's kind of what it means to me. I remember I had a COO work for me for a few years. He helped me get over a plateau.

I've known him for a long time. He was my tax accountant. He still is my tax accountant.

He's moved off to a larger enterprise. But he was impressed, like the first month he was here, he's like, wow, you guys do Intuit support. I'm like, well, wait a minute.

We're first line of defense for QuickBooks, but we don't really do Intuit support. But we're first line of defense for all of our customers line of business software. He was like really impressed because he didn't think that that would be in scope of an IT vendor.

So I've always said probably now for over 15 years to prospects and customers, whatever touches your network, your data and your network, we handle that. So that could be your ISP through vendor management. That could be your line of business software through vendor management.

It's the how-to, it's anything with Windows, Office and your software, and then it extends out to your tablets, your scanners out in the warehouse where you're picking, packing, of course, your Wi-Fi and your network in your warehouse. We've got customers with fleets of trucks where they have GPS units in there where they got to track their trucks. To us, that's just another line of business software.

So all of that stuff, including the VIP's home network, I guess that's a big one. I learned that years ago that when we added that, that's a big one. But I think that's an important one because we're going to need to do it anyway.

And before the pandemic, it was the VIP's, the owners, the vice presidents, the managers who were typically the ones who needed that remote access in the days before the pandemic. So we figured, why don't we just get that done right and securely? And then it's not a reactive thing.

But yeah, there's some interesting things like the big business owner's home golf simulator that he operates that needs a high graphics power computer. But it's fun. The techs love kind of doing that fun stuff from time to time.

[Uncle Marv]
Now, do you have a format that you're billing for all of these different components? For instance, I can imagine there's a line item for vendor management that is separate than the remote management for your desktop servers or users as you do it. But are you counting all of that stuff as a line item under your managed services?

Or are you just doing, here's our cost per user, period?

[David Stinner]
We just do a cost per user. And we try not to even talk about that in the sales prospecting phase, because I never met a prospect and my business development manager never met a prospect who tells the truth of the number of users. They just, I don't know, they don't seem to know.

Now, so I'll tell you why that can be difficult. At a law firm, a medical practice, it's pretty straightforward. Most of our business is in the supply chain.

So those are manufacturers, distribution companies, shipping companies, transportation companies. We're a border town. So there's a lot of commerce between the United States and Canada and Buffalo.

There's a lot of those logistics and importers and whatnot. So when it comes to those companies and the manufacturers, there are drivers, forklift operators at the manufacturers, there are welders, people working in the back who are not named users and we don't charge for. We just charge for the people on the carpeted space who operate on the computer network.

And that's where the discrepancy comes in sometimes, you know, like the manufacturer might have 150 people, but they only have 50 people with named users. So we're charging for the named users. OK.

The people in the back don't really use computers or laptops or whatnot.

[Uncle Marv]
OK, so I get that. So my approach is a little different. I do charge both per device and per user.

And I'm adding some other things where I'm charging per location and I'm starting to add a network fee to cover all of those other things that are on the network, such as my, you know, my domo spots, my watt boxes, my battery backups that we always seem to have an issue with where the customers like, you know, you know, I don't want to pay, you know, every three years to replace a battery that may or may not need it. I'm like, look, you're just going to pay me, period.

And we'll just do it as it's needed. And we don't have to fight with you every time we need to say, hey, it's time to refresh. So that's how I'm kind of doing it.

But the per device and per user kind of helps me take care of that. But it's user account, meaning if because I still have on-prem Active Directory servers. So if it's a user account, which includes the admin accounts, which includes, you know, any other account, you know, like a scan account for that, you know, if it's an account that I have to protect, then it's going to be counted as a as an account.

[David Stinner]
Well, that's interesting. I hope that becomes more profitable. It sounds complicated to me, though.

Is it complicated for you to do billing?

[Uncle Marv]
It wasn't until I got LionGuard. Which LionGuard actively goes out into all of my environments and I have monthly reports that would give me my active user accounts, my active devices, and then I've got my Domotz. So it's not as bad as it used to be.

Yes, it used to be a pain in the butt. I'd have to log in to the domain controller. I had a program called Hyena System Tools, Hyena, that I would actually have to manually tell it to count the active users in the Active Directory, all of that stuff.

But yeah, so now all of my stuff ties into LionGuard and I can pull a monthly report out of LionGuard.

[David Stinner]
Oh, well, that's good, because otherwise license sprawl and managing licenses can sometimes get out of hand. Yes, it's tough. So in some ways, I guess a little bit of that stuff we deal with, like one of our cybersecurity add-on plans is the ThreatLocker suite.

And we actually make that mandatory, but we bill for that separately by device because it's device count. So we bill our users, but so you'll see that like in a manufacturing facility where there might be 50 users, but 75 devices billed under the line item for ThreatLocker. And our other recurring revenue over the last three years has been the fastest growing part of our business, of course, because the Microsoft packages and the Azure stuff is getting more and more expensive.

So we bill outside of managed services for all that extra stuff. So whether it's Duo, two-factor authentication, the 365 suite, of course, the Azure, when we get rid of on-prem and we put stuff in Azure, that's extra recurring in our cyber packages. And then we add things from time to time, like with the changes in email security, that's been a new product that we've sold where we just kind of charge a flat rate.

I think it's $80 per domain per month to manage your DMARC and DKIM. That's a nice little add-on that you can do as a managed service provider to not only make sure your client's email flows properly, you know, you need to configure all those systems, whether they use email invoicing out of QuickBooks or Constant Contact or Survey System or any of those different kind of things. You got to configure all those things.

But those are some of the ways that we add on extra revenue. And sometimes that is per device.

[Uncle Marv]
So I do ThreatLocker and I also use TruGrid for secure remote access, but that's built into my per device or per user cost. I don't charge extra for that. The only things we charge extra for are going to be some of the compliance things like end user awareness training, where we actually will note that as an extra line item charge because we're going to do a separate report for them each month on that.

Interesting. You also mentioned that, you know, after the year of our COVID, you did some unique changes with your remote support. Tell us about that.

[David Stinner]
Yeah, so thank goodness for recurring revenue, because that was a scary time. I remember how I was just worried that my customers were going to close and we were going to lose everything. But, you know, quickly, 30 days into that whole thing and the shutdowns, we had to get all of our customers working remote.

And that's actually when we found ThreatLocker, because we were kind of scared really bad when people are going to use their home computers to remote in all the threats that could come in. So we found ThreatLocker and kind of rolled it out really quickly to do the allow listing. And ever since that point, made it mandatory.

So after that initial rush of getting everyone set up remotely, our project billing just fell off a cliff. I think from probably around June of 2020 until maybe the following summer of 2021, we just we got hammered with no project work whatsoever. And project work is a good amount of work, both in hardware, software sales and the professional service billable hours.

So coming out of the pandemic was the first time in my career when I needed to expand because we did contract a little bit and our headcount went down to just, I think, eight people at our lowest point in early 2021. Before the pandemic, one of the largest employers in Buffalo, a bank, M&T Bank, I think they're about the 12th largest bank in the United States. They do a lot of back office here in Buffalo, and they decided that they were going to build their tech hub here in Buffalo.

So they're all over. They're in New England, Boston, Baltimore. You know, the Ravens Stadium is called M&T Stadium.

They decided that they were going to, over a bunch of years, create 2,000 new tech jobs. That's a lot of tech jobs in a city of one million people. So for the first time in my career, I place an ad on Indeed and I get hardly anything.

And I know some people probably say, well, there's people on unemployment or whatever who didn't want to work. I don't know. I guess you could argue that that was one of the things, too.

But I knew that M&T Bank was taking all the graduates out of all the universities here in town. And we have a lot of universities in Buffalo. I think there's 16 or 17 universities.

So they were taking all the tech grads. And we have another, we have a unicorn here, too, a tech company that went public right around that time. And I think they have 3,000 people.

They went from like 2018 to currently like from zero to 3,000 people. Odoo is here in Buffalo, too. They're expanding.

They're in the hundreds of people. So we kind of came from before the pandemic with having not very many tech jobs to after the pandemic, thousands of local tech jobs. So when you're a small MSP with 10 people, how do you compete against that?

You got to do something. So my realization was, if I don't do something, I'm going to be handcuffed and I won't be able to grow when the customers call back and they want projects done. So I had wanted to play this game of arbitrage for some time, reading it in a book where you can hire people on the other side of the world to work for you.

I thought that's very intriguing. So when we couldn't find anyone in Buffalo, we expanded our reach and we ended up hiring two techs, one out of Norfolk, Virginia, and one out of Charlotte, North Carolina. Funny story, ultimately, after they worked for us remotely for a little bit, we brought them to Buffalo for a week for kind of finally meeting the staff face to face.

And both of them moved to Buffalo because they loved the environment. Not what you typically think of because people rat on us because of the weather, but they both ended up doing that. One guy is still here with me today.

So that experience forced us to deal with people remote, fully remote. I don't mean like, oh, you're going to work a couple of days remote and if I need you, I can call you in. Or I can tell you to drive from your house to the customer in town.

I mean, like in Charlotte, that's like 11 hours drive away. So that person is never going to serve as our customers here, right? So that forced us to learn all the techniques.

It forced us to do all the security, like what happens if that person disappears one day, right? How do you shut off their access to all of our customer servers and systems and blah, blah, blah. So my CTO, he figured that out.

And he was always the, you know, he's a very good security guy, always worried about the worst case scenario. So I said, you know, we're finally going to do this. I've been talking about finding people in other countries because it's hard to find people here.

I'm like, we're going to do this. So there was a vendor in the channel who I bought a product from and I won't name his name because he doesn't do this and he wouldn't want me to say his name because I bought an MSP tool from him and I had somebody turn me up as a product manager. And I said to him one day, wow, this guy is really amazing.

You know, I'm the typical MSP. I missed the appointment when I'm supposed to do the turn up and the second and the third appointment, right? And he calls and he has the meeting with my staff without me.

And then he gives me recap and notes and he tells me what my homework is next time. I'm like, this guy is amazing. He's really on point.

I said, where did you find him? He says, oh, he works for me in Manila. I'm like, really?

I'm like, you need to help me figure this out, right? So he's like, no, no, I don't do that. I don't do that.

I said, no, help me figure this out. Excuse me. So after I asked him like the eighth time, he said, okay, I'll give you my HR manager for one afternoon.

You can spend four hours with her. So I spent four hours with her and I picked her brain and she helped me create the plan and we figured it out from there. And what she did was she helped me hire my first remote person from the Philippines.

With an HR skillset. So that guy was the groundwork into building a whole Filipino team.

[Uncle Marv]
Sounds very nice.

[David Stinner]
So today we have a team of people over there who do the entry level help desk work. And without the time, you know, when we would have been able to hire them, we wouldn't have been able to grow to the point where we are today, which I think our revenue in 24 was three X where we were at the bottom of the pandemic. So we've had over 20% growth for four years in a row.

Now, a couple of my techs who were around at that time have moved up in the better and greater positions. One is a VCIO now dealing with the customers. One is a business development manager doing sales, which is absolutely phenomenal because he's great at it.

And I don't have to do sales anymore. I don't have to wear that hat because it's a struggle when you wear too many hats as a business owner. And one moved off the help desk and he is our second in command engineer now.

So it's given us the opportunity to move those people into better roles locally. Um, it's given us the opportunity to grow. And of course, I was very concerned with the type of customers.

I described the blue collar type customers. I was very concerned what they would think about having people in another country. But surprisingly, that never was an issue.

It was all in my mind that I was worried about that, that they would have problems with it.

[Uncle Marv]
Now, David, it sounds like you found this kind of naturally. I know that COVID, you know, sparked several organizations where, you know, they promote the hiring of overseas help. So did you go through any of those or did you find resources kind of back door through this HR person?

[David Stinner]
Um, no, actually, we do it all ourselves. So all of our, um, individuals on the team over there in the Philippines are directly managed, uh, recruited and managed by us. Um, and, you know, like you mentioned before, I'm in the ASCII group.

I got to speak on stage at the ASCII group about how I solved this problem of hiring. And in my peer group, I've had so many people in ASCII ask for help that I started another business where I actually help MSP business owners, uh, recruit and find and, uh, deal with help desk staff over there in the Philippines to augment their staff in the U S and Canada.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. I'm going to ask you how to, how do I miss that?

[David Stinner]
Well, I mean, I'm not out there advertising too much of it yet because it's, you know, it's still kind of a startup business, but, um, and it's a little, it's a, it's a niche product because what I'm delivering is a direct, a direct person that needs to be managed by you, the MSP owner. I'm not one of those shops where you pay by the ticket, or you have a pool of people that you share across MSPs. I just, what's worked really well for me is having my own staff.

So that's what I've been able to duplicate for other people where they, where they use our HR and, and kind of set up services to get one, two or three Filipino techs to be able to do that entry level work and then take their local techs and move them up to doing project work and more, more proactive work. And of course, you know, there is the benefit of the currency arbitrage, which means for the price of one tech in the U S or Canada, you can get about three. So that's, that's of course a huge advantage.

And without that advantage, we, you know, we, I don't think we would be in this as successful place that we are, you know, a lot of that. Well, I should say most, all of that did not go in my pocket. When we went through the terrible beginnings of the inflation post pandemic, we kept our prices at a minimal clip.

You know, when inflation was at 7%, we were charging 3% extra or some long-term customers. We didn't charge hardly any extra. And one of the ways we were able to do that was with this change in staff from the other side of the world.

So as our costs were going up, we kind of learned how to, how to be nimble and change our backend costs.

[Uncle Marv]
Now, this doesn't seem like it would be that much of a differentiator, but it also could be, do you see it like that?

[David Stinner]
Well, so like I said, at our low point in the pandemic, we're eight people now we're 16. It's really nice to have capacity. You know, it's tough to run an MSP and, you know, manage your balance sheet and your P&L.

And I always worry about, am I getting enough utilization out of the staff and the billable hours or, or, you know, the equivalent of billable hours for the, all you can eat. But, you know, I'm sure as MSP owners, we all know that people in the 2020s want more time off, more vacation. And without having extra staff, it's really hard to deal with, you know, but we have, we've got three guys in the help desk in the Philippines and two guys in Buffalo.

And when it comes to the engineers, we have two engineers in Buffalo and one overseas so that we're not always running on the red line. So that has been given us the breathing room. And of course you need the confidence level for your sales rep or yourself, if you're selling, that you have the added capacity.

How are you going to go out and sell 75, 150 seat client if when you're already redlining with your staff, you just can't do it. So it's helped quite a bit with that. When I was on stage at ASCII a couple of years ago, talking about it, what everybody was really surprised was the people that I'm hiring, they all come with a four-year bachelor degree.

They're typically in their thirties. So they have a decade or two of experience. They were dealing with the same things over there where they were working in a tall high rise in Manila, and then they worked from home and they loved it.

And then when the call to come back to the office came, they were like, you know, it's a rough commute in the densest city in the world. I got to take a jitney and then I got to take a train and it takes an hour and 10 minutes to get to work and an hour and 10 minutes to get to back. I rather work for a remote company on the graveyard shift in the middle of the night than deal with all that locally.

So that was a good opportunity. And there's a lot of people over there. There's 130 million people in the Philippines.

People don't know that it's such a large country. And I guess the final thing I'll say is that the people are very, very friendly and kind of aligned with American culture. They know everything about American culture through TV and the internet like we do.

And they've learned English. It's not, you can't exactly say it's their first language, but from kindergarten on all the way through primary school, high school and college, English has been taught since the early 90s and the teachers teach in English. So if you're learning history or you're learning math, the teachers are not teaching history and math in Filipino.

They're teaching it in English. So, you know, if you've been around a long time, you probably remember the company here in my town, Ingram Micro, in the mid 2000s outsourced a ton of sales rep and customer service jobs to the Philippines. And it was a bad experience.

A lot of us remember that. I was an Ingram customer and I remember that. And I remember local friends here in town are like, yeah, I went and trained my replacements and then I got the pink slip.

So there was that, there was all that too. But it's a different generation now. And the people who I'm hiring and I help MSPs with have grown up and are very comfortable and they write extremely well.

They have very good language. And in fact, they're frontline on my phones now. They, when you call the help desk in my MSP, they answer the phones.

So, so that is a unique thing that we did with our help desk and it's helped us tremendously. Very nice.

[Uncle Marv]
Very nice. Now, with all that you've done since then with your remote, your services and stuff, you, you talked about your area, you're now, you know, dealing with other tech people in your space up there. Where do you see growth for USI Tech?

[David Stinner]
I'm always looking to do acquisitions. It's hard to do acquisitions when you're a smaller MSP and private equity pays a lot of money. I've probably looked at 30 now in the last few years.

I've gotten into due diligence stage at least four times now. I've gotten outbid three times and one other time just found an opportunity that wasn't really a good fit. So we kind of left that opportunity.

I still, I'm not going to give up on that. I've done some small ones in the past, but I mean, you know, when you do an acquisition of somebody who's of equal or larger size, that's a great opportunity. And I think there's a lot of late boomers who are getting into their seventies in the MSP owner space that, that there will continue to be those opportunities.

But co-managed, I think is a big opportunity. Cybersecurity continues to be things that we're quoting out. We're not always winning them yet, but I think we will.

And when I say cybersecurity, I mean, where we don't do any help desk or any tech support or any networking, just cybersecurity. No, actually I take that back. We do have a couple of compliance jobs where we're doing compliance in cybersecurity.

So I see a lot of growth there. And as businesses continue to change and ownership changes, you know, we'll have to be nimble when it's no longer the boomers and my generation, the Gen Xers who are the purchasers of our services. When it starts to become more millennial and Gen Z purchasing our services, we'll have to completely change the way we do business because they want to be, I think, handled differently.

They don't buy in the same way that the previous generations did. So I'm always looking to think about those ways that we go to market.

[Uncle Marv]
There will be some changes are coming.

[David Stinner]
Yeah, there's always change.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. So let me let our listeners know, of course, some of them, if they've checked the show notes, they would have seen the link to your website, usitek.com and tech is spelled with a K. So US I tech.

And when they go across your banner there, there's a lot of compliant in those descriptions. You've got the, you know, compliant technology solutions, compliant cybersecurity, compliant IT support, compliant cloud solutions. A lot of compliance there.

[David Stinner]
I like compliance. We don't per se have the services to make you compliant because I don't think your IT vendor can make you compliant. They're still, the onus is still on the business owner to do all the operational side of their regulations, but we can deliver what it takes for them to be compliant.

If that makes sense. We can bring in the seam and the MDR, and we can help them with writing the policy. And, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of that in my town in manufacturing.

There's a lot of defense manufacturing, the second and third and fourth level manufacturers. You know, they may make 80% of their widgets that have nothing to do with the government, but 20%, they go to department of defense. So if they want to continue to keep doing that, they, they need to be compliant.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. Well, Dave, this has been a fun time. Thank you for being willing to sit and share and talk shop and give us a little bit of the behind the scenes of itek up there.

[David Stinner]
Well, thanks for having me on Marv. I really enjoy it. And it's, it's always a good time to, to talk with another MSP business owner and someone who understands this crazy world we live in.

[Uncle Marv]
It is crazy. I'm not going to say I understand it, but it is crazy.

[David Stinner]
It's hard. You know, I'll say that as my, my last comment here, seeing inside of all the different types of businesses that we serve for the last 20 years of managed services, what we do. Operate it's, it's harder than most businesses because the demands and the constant change.

It's, you know, I have manufacturers in trucking companies and for that matter, professional like doctor's offices, that not much has changed in 18 years for them. They're doing things the same way they did 18 years ago, but it's hard. So for all your listeners out there, you're doing a great service to your customers and don't ever forget that, that it's hard to run an IT service provider.

[Uncle Marv]
It is, it is. But I'm going to probably do it to the day I die. I'll figure it out at some point.

Yeah.

[David Stinner]
I wouldn't do anything else either.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for tuning in. This will conclude part two of our chat with David Stinner, founder and president of US itek up in the Buffalo, New York area.

And there was only one reference to the Bills Mafia who had such a heartbreaking year. They thought this was their year. So.

[David Stinner]
There's always next year, right? With the quarterback that good, that's all we can pray for.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. So, all right, folks, that's going to do it. We'll be back with more from the IT Business Podcast.

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